More on the concept of leaving the agency days behind the CDS

[CGriffing]

The difference is, I am not proposing to eliminate something that many believe to be a benefit to the community, so I do not carry the burden of proof.

[cerich]

Many believe otherwise as well, that's why it's important to discuss. What does a CDS C Card give consumers that other agency cards do not? What does it give the instructors? Does it lessen the membership of the CDS because it causes the CDS to be viewed by many as an outgrowth of it's certification efforts. Does it do the opposite?

There are a ton of questions, none of us will have all the answers but it sure is worthwhile to discuss.

Obviously I think and feel that the CDS can be biiger with the certification aspect, I also think it can play a bigger role in cave conservation, education and even setting the bar for training.

What happens if the CDS does not change? Do people think what is happening now is workable? I don't. Take a look at the number of people being trained by the non cave agencies in that other thread. They haven't been playing the game for long and frankly IMHO the instr process is MUCH easier outside the cave agencies...so I expect to see further poorly trained divers wrecking the caves and ...ending up dead.

Keeping the course we are on IMHO is just going to further marginalize the CDS. That can be changed.

The difference is, I am not proposing to eliminate something that many believe to be a benefit to the community.

[CGriffing]

But that is just your opinion. You have no evidence other than anecdotal evidence and gut feelings. Go back and look at the results of your poll. Even taking out the third option, those who want the training to remain outnumber those who don't by a significant margin. I am not saying that there is no room for improvement, but I do not think you have presented the solution. For some, it may appear that as an instructor who sees the CDS as a competing organization to the agency for which you teach cave diving, your goal is to eliminate the competitor. I am not saying that is your motivation, but to some it could appear that way.

[cerich]

I never said I see the CDS as competition. I have said it is perceived as such by certification agencies. If I was actually concerned with competition (I really am not, I don't teach for a living but people gotta believe or smear what people are gonna believe) I would be worried about individual instructors, not the agency they teach for.Crappy Instructors that teach quick classes, charge little and never fail anybody no matter how poorly they REALLY pisses me off.

I see the poll, I respect the views the poll represents, however I really believe that things on the current course aren't going to end well. We live in a nanny world and eventually enough gruesome deaths with grieving families and "the people" are gonna demand that cave diving be regulated away. In the mean time the caves are getting trashed by dives and pollution, we can better take on that fight as a more inclusive, larger group, not a bunch of little tribal groups fighting turf and ego battles in North Florida.

Yeah, I'm just that naive to believe we can do better. So one poll isn't going to make me quit.

But that is just your opinion. You have no evidence other than anecdotal evidence and gut feelings. Go back and look at the results of your poll. Even taking out the third option, those who want the training to remain outnumber those who don't by a significant margin. I am not saying that there is not room for improvement, but I do not think you have presented the solution. For some, it may appear that as an instructor, who sees the CDS as a competing organization to the agency for which you teach cave diving, your goal is to eliminate the competitor. I am not saying that is your motivation, but to some it could appear as such.

[CGriffing]

I never said I see the CDS as competition.

You may not have said it, but you certainly wrote it. Refer to your post quoted below; specifically, the last line.

I am not seeking accreditation for ANY AGENCY. I am looking at there being a voluntary accreditation that individual instructors could submit themselves to to separate the "wheat from the chaff" as it were. I stated that I like the NAUI Cave program, are there NAUI Cave Instructors doing a crappy job? I am gonna have to say yes. When I have potential students or other divers who have done a NAUI Cave 1 saying they can do/have done a NAUI Cave 1 in 3 days with XX NAUI Instructor and I know that doing it in 5 is near impossible then really it isn't rocket science to figure it out. So, I could report i to NAUI and get told, "get proof they have actually taught a class in 3 days", on the few occasions I have been told by students their class was 3 days, they don't want to get their instructor in trouble... so the process continues.

So would I as a NAUI Instructor like to have something that shows potential students that not only do I teach a course with high standards (NAUI) but have also voluntarily submitted myself to an even higher level of professional commitment and vetting by a peer group of respected instructors? Heck yes.

In y discussions with other Instructors from other agencies, this is not a agency specific problem, it's a community problem. We don't have a group that represents the community in it's entity. We have factions or some newer groups (ASA, NFSA) with a narrow and specific focus. This is also not simply a N Florida issue, it extends on a international scale.

I think the CDS can be that organization, but not when it is a competing cave training agency.

[cwick]

Carl,

Do you see the current system as being something that needs to be fixed?

[cerich]

OK, not when it is a competing cave training agency to the other training agencies. Thankfully most that read that will understand the way I originally wrote it even without what I just added in Italics.

I get that you don't like the idea, I get you are trying to discredit me. It's pretty obvious. Fine. I hate to break it to you but every time you post and I reply it just makes more people read this, more people think about it and that's healthy.

You may not have said it, but you certainly wrote it. Refer to your post quoted below; specifically, the last line.

[CGriffing]

Again, you are too defensive. You state your opinion, I state mine. The difference is, I have not been snippy with you or presume to know what you think. Can you not debate the issues without making things personal?

[CGriffing]

Carl,

Do you see the current system as being something that needs to be fixed?

Certainly, there are many opportunities. I just do not think what Chris has proposed is the solution, as he has no evidence that it will work.

[cerich]

Can you articulate the opportunities you see?

Certainly, there are many opportunities. I just do not think what Chris has proposed is the solution, as he has no evidence that it will work.