More on the concept of leaving the agency days behind the CDS

[MORGAN]

A few thoughts:

A lot of informal mentoring goes on now at all levels, and it seems to me that it's pretty easily available, if you're looking for it. I've never had problems finding more experienced people to dive with, and I've learned a lot from them. Met some just hanging around Dive Outpost or wandering around dive sites looking for someone to dive with.

You don't have to be a cave diving instructor or a super cave diver to be a mentor, either. Tracy and I are just journeyman line-following tourist cave divers with 250-ish cave dives who spend six weeks a year cave diving. But we've had the opportunity to take quite a few newer cave divers on dives with us and do a bit of low key mentoring.

I think that the problem is attitude and mindset. Some people who look at cave diving as an art that requires time and effort to perfect. They read, study, practice skills, look for mentors, and are receptive to feedback from the people they dive with. They are "students of the game", committed to continuous improvement. These folks are looking for mentors and usually have little trouble finding them.

Then there are the people who think, "I've got my card, this isn't all that hard, so what if I put my hand down in the silt now and then." They just want to do bigger and bigger dives and have bragging rights. They are not looking for mentoring, and are resentful if any of their shortcomings are called to their attention. Fortunately these folks tend to move on from cave diving after a year or two, looking for the next adventure and next t-shirt to get. But there are always more to replace them.

The people who need mentoring the most are the least likely to seek it out. A more formal approach to mentoring may be helpful, but I don't think that it will help the people who don't want it.

Mike

[cwick]

I think there is a fairly significant point you all are missing in this discussion. IMO, many (maybe most) cave students know very little if anything about the agencies before they enroll in their first cave class. In my own case, I chose my cave instructor based on his reputation, not his affiliation. During the course he covered the different agencies and indicated that he was affiliated with the NACD and for an additional fee would also issue me a TDI cert. Whether I joined the NACD or CDS had more to do with his input. Which instructor a student picks for their first cave class based on an endorsement from the CDS or NACD is wishful thinking at best in most cases. The fact that bad instructors survive and flourish in cave diving is a testament to the lack of research the average prospective cave student does before enrolling in class.

Ted

Ted,
I agree with your conclusion about how people choose instructors and Org's because I too made the same choices via the same process, the problem that I see in this system is that when we chose our instructors we had to rely on our friends conclusion regarding the quality of instruction that they received and human nature would prevent our friends from telling us that their instructors we're sub par and this is the gap in the system that needs to be closed.

Chris

[moody]

A few thoughts:

A lot of informal mentoring goes on now at all levels, and it seems to me that it's pretty easily available, if you're looking for it. I've never had problems finding more experienced people to dive with, and I've learned a lot from them. Met some just hanging around Dive Outpost or wandering around dive sites looking for someone to dive with.

You don't have to be a cave diving instructor or a super cave diver to be a mentor, either. Tracy and I are just journeyman line-following tourist cave divers with 250-ish cave dives who spend six weeks a year cave diving. But we've had the opportunity to take quite a few newer cave divers on dives with us and do a bit of low key mentoring.

I think that the problem is attitude and mindset. Some people who look at cave diving as an art that requires time and effort to perfect. They read, study, practice skills, look for mentors, and are receptive to feedback from the people they dive with. They are "students of the game", committed to continuous improvement. These folks are looking for mentors and usually have little trouble finding them.

You may have a valid point but for example I have to drive 22hrs to dive the nearest Florida cave or 17hrs for one in Missouri. I do know a couple of people as you said through my instructor and the usual channels but often times schedules don't match up, I don't want to head down for a week long trip and have my buddy plan be "I'll figure something out". Sometimes you can also benefit from learning about something in a different way or from someone who doesn't have a preconceived notion of what your diving is like because they taught you, there are a variety of reasons why you might want to seek out mentorship through different channels instead just the ones that initial taught you. I'm very lucky in that I had an excellent instructor, but that doesn't mean i don't want to learn as much as i can from as wide a variety of people as i can. Sure you can head to the dive outpost and find someone to dive with but you may have no idea about there diving ability or character. They may even enforce some bad habits "nah, you don't have to do S drills, that's just for newbies". If there is quality mentorship available that is readily accessible that's great, but if it's working so well then why are so many people bemoaning the quality of cave diving today? I would wager that there are plenty of good mentors out there, probably some bad ones too, and much in the middle. I'm under the impression the CDS is looking at ways to:
1. Improve the generally quality of cave divers
2. Find away to interest and involve the membership

I think a mentorship program helps address those points that whatever informal mentorship that presently exists doesn't.

[TONY CHANEY]

You know that if you want to meet some very dedicated and professional divers that all seem to want to assist others then all you have to do is attend a social. I went to the New Years event and although I had dive buddies I still dove with 4 other divers during the weekend.

[Jont]

Chris,

After reading the responses the post started by Bobby I'm warming up to your idea, I tend to look at situations like this as I would a business maybe thats the wrong set of glasses.

[TeddyB]

I don't know what Billy Fowlers status is at the moment. He was definitely not in the game for the money. He offered mentor dives for alumni and ( not sure of this) for those interested. My personal experience with Billy was that he loved diving and wanted those who were interested to learn well and live. He had a rough few months outside teaching and I don't know what he is doing now. Billy is a great advocate of "learn to do it right... Learn to do it well" kudos to Billy Fowler.

[MORGAN]

You may have a valid point but for example I have to drive 22hrs to dive the nearest Florida cave or 17hrs for one in Missouri. I do know a couple of people as you said through my instructor and the usual channels but often times schedules don't match up, I don't want to head down for a week long trip and have my buddy plan be "I'll figure something out". Sometimes you can also benefit from learning about something in a different way or from someone who doesn't have a preconceived notion of what your diving is like because they taught you, there are a variety of reasons why you might want to seek out mentorship through different channels instead just the ones that initial taught you. I'm very lucky in that I had an excellent instructor, but that doesn't mean i don't want to learn as much as i can from as wide a variety of people as i can. Sure you can head to the dive outpost and find someone to dive with but you may have no idea about there diving ability or character. They may even enforce some bad habits "nah, you don't have to do S drills, that's just for newbies". If there is quality mentorship available that is readily accessible that's great, but if it's working so well then why are so many people bemoaning the quality of cave diving today? I would wager that there are plenty of good mentors out there, probably some bad ones too, and much in the middle. I'm under the impression the CDS is looking at ways to:
1. Improve the generally quality of cave divers
2. Find away to interest and involve the membership

I think a mentorship program helps address those points that whatever informal mentorship that presently exists doesn't.

I agree with everything you say here - I think that mentoring is extremely valuable, and see no downside to a formal mentoring program. My main point is that no matter what mentoring is available, the people who need it most are unlikely to take advantage of it.

(BTW, It's 25 hours of driving to the nearest Florida cave for me. )

Mike

[moody]

I agree with everything you say here - I think that mentoring is extremely valuable, and see no downside to a formal mentoring program. My main point is that no matter what mentoring is available, the people who need it most are unlikely to take advantage of it.

(BTW, It's 25 hours of driving to the nearest Florida cave for me. )

Mike

I feel your pain, 25hr drives suck! If the people most in need of mentoring are the least likely to seek it out then we have to try do something to change that. It boils down to attitude, I'm not sure how we go about changing that.