More on the concept of leaving the agency days behind the CDS

[cerich]

Some people have noticed that I am a proponent of the CDS getting out of the business of issuing c cards. One thing that has been obvious to me is that even after my talks the last couple of years at the conferences there are still some people that don’t understand why, or worse subscribe it to my trying to destroy the CDS. Nothing could be further from the truth. I also do not believe in any way that the instructors from the CDS represent poor quality, in fact I will state that the standards in place by the CDS for their instructor program is in fact much stronger than the standards in place to become a cave instructor from most other agencies.
So why? Why am I so hell bent on pushing this agenda? What exactly do I see the benefits? What structure do I have a vision of?
Right now, intention or not, reality or not, the CDS presents to potential cave students as one of a choice of certifying agencies that are competing for their dollars. To other agencies the CDS presents as a competitor. I may be naïve but it is my honest belief that were there to be a Cave Association that was NOT involved in certification, the greater community upon seeing the focus of that association and supporting the efforts would help to grow the association better. Much like the The Southeastern Cave Conservancy has grown and been successful in the dry caving community.

However, the issues we face in cave diving aren’t just regional. Cave diving will always be a fringe activity attracting dry cavers who don’t want to be limited in their exploration by a little (or a lot) of water, or divers looking for the challenge of the “pinnacle of dive training”, possibly attracted by the designation in the media as cave diving being the most dangerous sport. Regional and tribal groups will remain relatively small and because of this no matter how hard the members work, the collective impact of these groups will remain somewhat limited.

The NSS-CDS was supposed to be different, the NACD was a certification agency, the CDS was not…until a big name instructor got kicked out of the NACD and came to the CDS..out of cave politics the CDS got into the card business…..

Today, more than ever there is no leading organization in the international cave diving community, we have factions, lots and lots of them.
I believe the CDS can be that organization.
So we stop the CDS from issuing cards. What on earth would make it so suddenly special? First the other agencies would no longer see the CDS as a threat, that changes the dynamic is a massive manner.

So lets say instead of dissolving the Training Committee it was to suddenly expand? The top cave instructors worldwide from any agency would be invited to participate in the CDS Training committee. This committee would meet and discuss current standards in cave diving, emerging trends, accident analysis, instructor course standards (I promise you this, if you think all cave instructor programs are equal you would be SADLY mistaken, even among the same agency). Once everything is on the table the committee would then make recommendations that are based on best practices as agreed to by the committee. This committee would be an ongoing concern with an annual report presented at the annual CDS conference.

Because this “best practices” is non-agency aligned and in fact is based upon recommendation by top instructors from a variety of agencies it will carry a significant degree of weight among the cave diving certification agencies, in essence we peer pressure the agencies to raise the bar to best practices or they are exposed as substandard.
Being invited to participate on the new CDS training committee would be a great honor from the most critical and important group to judge you, other cave instructors.
If the board and membership felt that pursuing the Accreditation” process that Brett recommended (and I support) at the conference this past weekend it would be easily implemented out of the report of the Training committee on best practices. These recommended best practices become a set of standards by which Cave Instructors from any agency would be able to voluntarily submit to an evaluation process by appointed evaluation teams of the training committee. Once they complete this program they get to use the CDS Accreditation in their individual marketing efforts, are listed on the CDS web site. This public, transparent system that identifies the very best of cave instructors that voluntarily subscribe to higher professional standards regardless of agency affiliation becomes the new gold standard in cave instruction.

The fly in the ointment as it were on this approach is current CDS instructors. During this process of realignment there would have to a period where they could continue to issue card, just no new instructors registered. The first priority of the Accreditation program would have to be for current CDS instructors. It is worth noting that currently, no CDS instructor can purchase instructional insurance thru the CDS, the MUST be an Instructor from another agency already. It places no new or unrealistic or unfair burden on them to make this change.

I hope this post helps clear up some things, I am always open to discuss this.

Best,

Chris Richardson

[Jont]

Chris:

Its an interesting idea and something I'll certainly think about.

Plans like this can be VERY successful but they all come with HUGE risk and need to be implemented perfectly.

You'll need support from at least 30% of all existing cert. agencies from recreational to tech, etc..the point is all agencies.

You will also need a certification agency to "attack" to create controversy and create a target, that wont be hard to do.

You will also need between 2 and 4 active cave instructors to throw under a bus for the same reasons.

It gets ugly so you need the stomach for this fight, now if you can assemble the above you have a winner and I agree the CDS would emerge as the "gold standard" and agencies would seek accreditation.

[cerich]

Let me address your comments one by one.

-You'll need support from at least 30% of all existing cert. agencies from recreational to tech, etc..the point is all agencies.

Actually, we wouldn't need their support at all, nor ask for it. Its not asking cert agencies to come in line, it's offering the instructors a "gold star" to come aboard, don't forget, we would invite the best of cave instructors to the committee, these folks would for sure go for accreditation. So we have the best on the CDS committee, the best accredited, that's a awful lot of pressure for other instructors that want to be great instructors to ignore. Quite frankly, a cave instructor that doesn't want to be the best and be willing to be evaluated by his/her peers most likely is hiding something.

You will also need a certification agency to "attack" to create controversy and create a target, that wont be hard to do.

Nope, not if the above was done. not to say it wouldn't be entertaining but it sure wouldn't be productive. it isn't about the negative of pointing out lower standards, bad instructors. it would be about the positive of having a non agency higher standard that is non partisan that instructors can aspire to and students can seek out without being pigeon holed into a training agencies philosophical/political eco sphere.

You will also need between 2 and 4 active cave instructors to throw under a bus for the same reasons.

I don't think so, the crappy instructors mostly know they are and won't seek out accreditation, thru that they will end up marginalized. Plus there is ALWAYS students that want the fast and easy way...let them serve that market. In the meantime we spread a positive attitude towards training and higher standards by setting the tone without the normal "my agency is better than yours","you take their course you will die" and my favorite "you have any 501's?"

It gets ugly so you need the stomach for this fight,

not me, we. Personally I'm not much afraid of pissing people off. Ever hear of HOG?

I agree the CDS would emerge as the "gold standard" and agencies would seek accreditation

Re-emerge and take it's rightful place

Chris:

Its an interesting idea and something I'll certainly think about.

Plans like this can be VERY successful but they all come with HUGE risk and need to be implemented perfectly.

You'll need support from at least 30% of all existing cert. agencies from recreational to tech, etc..the point is all agencies.

You will also need a certification agency to "attack" to create controversy and create a target, that wont be hard to do.

You will also need between 2 and 4 active cave instructors to throw under a bus for the same reasons.

It gets ugly so you need the stomach for this fight, now if you can assemble the above you have a winner and I agree the CDS would emerge as the "gold standard" and agencies would seek accreditation.

[Jont]

Let me address your comments one by one.

-You'll need support from at least 30% of all existing cert. agencies from recreational to tech, etc..the point is all agencies.

Actually, we wouldn't need their support at all, nor ask for it. Its not asking cert agencies to come in line, it's offering the instructors a "gold star" to come aboard, don't forget, we would invite the best of cave instructors to the committee, these folks would for sure go for accreditation. So we have the best on the CDS committee, the best accredited, that's a awful lot of pressure for other instructors that want to be great instructors to ignore. Quite frankly, a cave instructor that doesn't want to be the best and be willing to be evaluated by his/her peers most likely is hiding something.

You will also need a certification agency to "attack" to create controversy and create a target, that wont be hard to do.

Nope, not if the above was done. not to say it wouldn't be entertaining but it sure wouldn't be productive. it isn't about the negative of pointing out lower standards, bad instructors. it would be about the positive of having a non agency higher standard that is non partisan that instructors can aspire to and students can seek out without being pigeon holed into a training agencies philosophical/political eco sphere.

You will also need between 2 and 4 active cave instructors to throw under a bus for the same reasons.

I don't think so, the crappy instructors mostly know they are and won't seek out accreditation, thru that they will end up marginalized. Plus there is ALWAYS students that want the fast and easy way...let them serve that market. In the meantime we spread a positive attitude towards training and higher standards by setting the tone without the normal "my agency is better than yours","you take their course you will die" and my favorite "you have any 501's?"

It gets ugly so you need the stomach for this fight,

not me, we. Personally I'm not much afraid of pissing people off. Ever hear of HOG?

I agree the CDS would emerge as the "gold standard" and agencies would seek accreditation

Re-emerge and take it's rightful place

Chris,

I'm quite familiar with you, Thanksgiving 2012 at Waynes, you did a masterful job creating a Mid-High end product line at bargain basement pricing, it's great and now own 2 HOG regs., I wasn't a believer but that was my mistake, I didn't believe that a quality product could be had at your price point, I was dead wrong and you do amazing work.

Personally I dont think the risks associated with making such a drastic change are worth the payoff, the market isn't big enough therefore the market share doesn't exist so why take a chance?

I do think if WE go about it the way YOU suggest WE will fail.

[cerich]

Change is always difficult, often by the time an organization truly feels the need to do so it's too late.

As I stated in my first post in the thread, I may be naive... or not. There is no way to tell at this point.

I feel very comfortable in saying that if things do not change than the relevance of the CDS will be zero in a few short years.

We may hate to admit it but now that the training agencies are into this it's going to continue to eat away at the CDS, look at the who certified you thread. That means quite frankly we are going to get more and more sub standard instructors and substandard product (the aforesaid instructors), more accidents and more areas of the cave looking like somebody had a mudfight.

So, for me, seeing as I believe the current path will end up killing the CDS anyhow, there is actually no risk at all in trying a different path, I "KNOW" this one ends badly, what's the worse the other can offer?

Chris,

I'm quite familiar with you, Thanksgiving 2012 at Waynes, you did a masterful job creating a Mid-High end product line at bargain basement pricing, it's great and now own 2 HOG regs., I wasn't a believer but that was my mistake, I didn't believe that a quality product could be had at your price point, I was dead wrong and you do amazing work.

Personally I dont think the risks associated with making such a drastic change are worth the payoff, the market isn't big enough therefore the market share doesn't exist so why take a chance?

I do think if WE go about it the way YOU suggest WE will fail.

[Squirrel Girl]

Change is always difficult, often by the time an organization truly feels the need to do so it's too late.

You mean change like "New Coke"?

I'm not going to weigh in (at least not now) on the merits of the CDS getting out of the cert business. But sometimes change is needed, sometimes it's resisted, sometimes it's a crazy, foolish idea. Oftentimes you can't tell until after the change is made as to whether it was a good idea or not. The best we can do is weigh the options and see what makes the most sense. When people resist change, it might be for good reason.

[Superlyte27]

I believe the NSS-CDS is already the gold standard. Do you know how many TDI, IANTD, NASE & PADI instructors I know who's sole goal for this year and the years beyond is to become an NSS-CDS instructor? I can tell you at the very least my name is on that list. I can also tell you that when students come to me for class, they want an NSS-CDS card. Say what you will, but instructors and students and future students in the US know that the NSS-CDS is the most respected cave diving agency and a lot want to be a part of it.

Sure, every agency has problems. And we are not immune to them here. There are deficits that need to be fixed. But we don't need to scrap it all and start over. We simply need to take some time and get back on track with our focus and goals. We need singular direction. I'm not sure that best direction is dismantling the best group of instructors (on the whole) out there because some people think we shouldn't be in the certification business.

Train up a cave diver in the way he should go, and even when he is old, he will not depart from it.
What better way to recruit great members into our organization than for great instructors to show them how and why we do the things we do. The problem hasn't changed. We need to embrace the great instructors, and dismiss the bad instructors (figuring out how to do that is the true crux of the problem). Recruit good peeps. Mentor, mold, form, and educate potential members who's ideals are in line with ours.

I'll do anything I can to help.

[Jont]

I believe the NSS-CDS is already the gold standard. Do you know how many TDI, IANTD, NASE & PADI instructors I know who's sole goal for this year and the years beyond is to become an NSS-CDS instructor? I can tell you at the very least my name is on that list. I can also tell you that when students come to me for class, they want an NSS-CDS card. Say what you will, but instructors and students and future students in the US know that the NSS-CDS is the most respected cave diving agency and a lot want to be a part of it.

Sure, every agency has problems. And we are not immune to them here. There are deficits that need to be fixed. But we don't need to scrap it all and start over. We simply need to take some time and get back on track with our focus and goals. We need singular direction. I'm not sure that best direction is dismantling the best group of instructors (on the whole) out there because some people think we shouldn't be in the certification business.

Train up a cave diver in the way he should go, and even when he is old, he will not depart from it.
What better way to recruit great members into our organization than for great instructors to show them how and why we do the things we do. The problem hasn't changed. We need to embrace the great instructors, and dismiss the bad instructors (figuring out how to do that is the true crux of the problem). Recruit good peeps. Mentor, mold, form, and educate potential members who's ideals are in line with ours.

I'll do anything I can to help.

To the UCD:

Maybe it is and maybe it isn't (the gold standard) but what Chris is suggesting is a complete overhaul, he wants an agency that sits on top of Mount Olympus that has the authority to "bless" cave instructors (not agencies) while refusing to actively partake in the practice they scrutinize..........thats tough to do and certainly wont happen unless a winnable fight is picked. There's no way to quickly and seamlessly integrate such drastic changes.

I think direction you suggest is the best course of action UCD.

Jon

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Chris, agree with you, and Brett 100%.

I believe the NSS-CDS is already the gold standard. Do you know how many TDI, IANTD, NASE & PADI instructors I know who's sole goal for this year and the years beyond is to become an NSS-CDS instructor? I can tell you at the very least my name is on that list. I can also tell you that when students come to me for class, they want an NSS-CDS card. Say what you will, but instructors and students and future students in the US know that the NSS-CDS is the most respected cave diving agency and a lot want to be a part of it.

I don't think I've ever in my life heard of anyone turning down an instructor for one who will issue a CDS card. Never really knew any instructors who are holding their crossovers to the CDS above any of the many other agency crossovers they've done.

In my experience, CDS as a training agency within the last decade or so... is just another acronym in a big ole pile of acronyms available to anyone.


I do believe they should be the gold standard, always have due to their past, but have never thought of them in current times as that gold standard. To the point where I could have gotten CDS cards from one of my instructors and just didn't bother, as it meant nothing over the for-profit agency's card I did get issued.

I truly believe, with this fresh BOD, there will be some new thinking and forward progress all around. Its why I re-joined.

[speleodiver]

While I do not disagree with the position state here, I see it Asa lot of work that will lead to very little change. The real issue is the instructors and the fact most agencies will not enforce standard violations. Many will not even investigate a complaint that comes in. Just imagine the world if most police departments had this attitude? You call up to make a compliant and get told to bring forth concrete evidence to prove the claim! Now let's look at concrete evidence? Does this mean go find witnesses an get statements? Does it mean go video the violations? Or should we just wait until the day comes an lay the dead body upon the alter of the agency who failed to protect its way of life. Oh wait did I say it's way of life? I meant my way of life that is the same as every other cave diver!!!

Chris, my hats off to you for the countless hours you have out in to develop such a plan. But in reality, every piece of crap instructor will continue to atink because the agencies allow them too. I will fight the fight with you knowing we will most likely not succeed. But before the first sword is drawn let me suggest this. Going after the development of a supreme agency is not the path to take my friend. Establishing a cave diving federation which garners the commitment of each insurance agency and eventually the under writer (Lloyds of London) will certainly ensure every instructor is of the very beat or they will not be teaching.

I learned a long time ago that wars are won by being the best but by controlling the interest in what the citizens must have.
No instructor we speak of will give a rats A$$ to be part of an organization because the top dogs say so. But when they must have insurance to teach......well now you control the market.

As Obi Wan put it.....use the force and control the mind!