More on the concept of leaving the agency days behind the CDS

[cerich]

If that's the case then we should all just stop renewing and call it a day..... but I think that's really not the case. The CDS has so much stuff they do that that is not certification related and great people involved that have never trained a diver...

Chris,

When I was talking to others about the CDS they explained how CDS has had some of the same issues as NACD was reported to have more recently had. Whether or not that's true is almost irrelevant; the people speaking were long time cavers and CDS did not have a reputation of self-regulation and improvement.

Until CDS builds the brand of "Golden standard"by self-policing instructors, solid training, good exploration and wide-spread education then nothing will be relevant about CDS. It will remain "one more agency". If the CDS chooses to not issue cards then it will become irrelevant even faster.

Think of it as a business. Because it is. Money must come in so money can go out. CDS needs to have a good product that is well marketed and backed by a solid reputation.

Leam

[CGriffing]

...The CDS has so much stuff they do that that is not certification related and great people involved that have never trained a diver...

I wonder how many of them became aware of the CDS through the CDS training programs, whether they took a course or joined because a member they know had taken training and were referred by that member.

[cerich]

You could start a survey, pick a different number three than I did however...

I wonder how many of them became aware of the CDS through the CDS training programs, whether they took a course or joined because a member they know had taken training and were referred by that member.

[CGriffing]

I would definitely treat my survey and you with more respect than that.

[Leam]

If that's the case then we should all just stop renewing and call it a day..... but I think that's really not the case. The CDS has so much stuff they do that that is not certification related and great people involved that have never trained a diver...

I am naive enough to think that we can make things work.

Leam

[cerich]

me too.

I am naive enough to think that we can make things work.

Leam

[Jont]

Hi Chris, there were some good points brought up but again I dont see how eliminating certification which is education does any good for the organization?

Because the market is so small and 5 or 6 other agencies certify cave divers who's really going to cave about becoming "accredited" by the CDS?

Wouldn't some be insulted and view it as arrogant to give up a training program yet offer accreditation? There would seem to be an inherent hypocrisy, we're so good we dont need to teach?

What would be required to recieve this blessing? Would you equate it to becoming board certified like MD's? if so thats a grueling process.

If its not a grueling and painstaking process what will it really mean?

What instructor sets the GOLD STANDARD? Terry Tysall? Dan Patterson?? JJ? arguably some if the best ever but a lot of (overly sensitive) people don't like the "teaching style" of these guys, some have even called it militant ....... LOL......poor fools.

I understand you wouldn't go after agencies and thats smart but I still can't see how eliminating an existing distribution chain helps, considering the market is very small and many alternates exist, I think there's a better way as described here (my last post):

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...business/page8

Very good debate though.

[Garth]

As long as there is instruction by the time I'm ready to start cave diving. If this cave diving falls apart and becomes obsolete I'm going to be extremely pissed off. I'd like to see some wet rocks that reside outside of a chilly quarry..

Thanks

[cerich]

This earlier post should answer most of the questions.

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...l=1#post230789

I suspect when we get a bunch of world class instructors together to agree on best standards that when the fray is done and the process finished the accreditation process/evaluation would not be a walk in the park by any means. I'm a little militant when teaching as well but I imagine that it wouldn't be a single instructor running the accreditation process. In a group instruction environment you get more balance. That said being hard is the point. IMHO half of the people that complain about "that" type of instructor are more angry at themselves for not meeting the standard and the instructor not compromising than they actually are at the instructor. An instructor that truly cares worries more about the development of the student than a friendship star from them.

Hi Chris, there were some good points brought up but again I dont see how eliminating certification which is education does any good for the organization?

Because the market is so small and 5 or 6 other agencies certify cave divers who's really going to cave about becoming "accredited" by the CDS?

Wouldn't some be insulted and view it as arrogant to give up a training program yet offer accreditation? There would seem to be an inherent hypocrisy, we're so good we dont need to teach?

What would be required to recieve this blessing? Would you equate it to becoming board certified like MD's? if so thats a grueling process.

If its not a grueling and painstaking process what will it really mean?

What instructor sets the GOLD STANDARD? Terry Tysall? Dan Patterson?? JJ? arguably some if the best ever but a lot of (overly sensitive) people don't like the "teaching style" of these guys, some have even called it militant ....... LOL......poor fools.

I understand you wouldn't go after agencies and thats smart but I still can't see how eliminating an existing distribution chain helps, considering the market is very small and many alternates exist, I think there's a better way as described here (my last post):

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...business/page8

Very good debate though.

[Jont]

This earlier post should answer most of the questions.

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...l=1#post230789

I suspect when we get a bunch of world class instructors together to agree on best standards that when the fray is done and the process finished the accreditation process/evaluation would not be a walk in the park by any means. I'm a little militant when teaching as well but I imagine that it wouldn't be a single instructor running the accreditation process. In a group instruction environment you get more balance. That said being hard is the point. IMHO half of the people that complain about "that" type of instructor are more angry at themselves for not meeting the standard and the instructor not compromising than they actually are at the instructor. An instructor that truly cares worries more about the development of the student than a friendship star from them.

Chris, I couldn't agree with your above comment more, you hit the nail on the head.

These questions havent been answered:

I dont see how eliminating certification which is education does any good for the organization?

Because the market is so small and 5 or 6 other agencies certify cave divers who's really going to cave about becoming "accredited" by the CDS?

Wouldn't some be insulted and view it as arrogant to give up a training program yet offer accreditation? There would seem to be an inherent hypocrisy, we're so good we dont need to teach?


Now lets assume that this happens, how is the CDS going to separate themselves from everyone else? Would offering expedition level mentorships make sense? I'm thinking out load?

Granted that involves very high risk diving even for the very experienced but thtat would certainly stand out?