Accident Analysis

[OFG-1]

oh also what currently is happening is only a handful of local divers really get the full scoop on what happened.

AJ, do you think they are really getting the full scoop, or just what is found after the accident. As example, at the EN incident, does anyone really know what happened at the restriction to Revelation space that caused these two guys to leave a rebreather, bail out, and scooter behind and bolt for the door? Or is that a detail that was withheld?

Did any of the other divers give a reason to withhold information? Is there a liability issue here that I am not understanding?

[PfcAJ]

AJ, do you think they are really getting the full scoop, or just what is found after the accident. As example, at the EN incident, does anyone really know what happened at the restriction to Revelation space that caused these two guys to leave a rebreather, bail out, and scooter behind and bolt for the door? Or is that a detail that was withheld?

So I think that would get into developing a narrative that we can’t demonstrate given the evidence. “Why” something happened is tough to say since we can’t interview some who passed away. “What” happened is something we can report on.

Here’s an example: we could match shearwater depth/ time graphs and that could indicate if a diver was significantly delayed and if there was a prolonged buddy separation. Possible factors? Maybe. But we just don’t know because the information is withheld for whatever reason. To me that’s bad. SOMEONE has seen those downloads. But it wasn’t me, and it certainly isn’t the general cave diving community.

[OFG-1]

So I think that would get into developing a narrative that we can?t demonstrate given the evidence. ?Why? something happened is tough to say since we can?t interview some who passed away. ?What? happened is something we can report on.
.

I agree with you 100%. The only reason I asked was to try to give some answer to all of the yahoos that engage in endless speculations on the accident threads, some of which are both comical and cruel.

[LiteHedded]

I agree with you 100%. The only reason I asked was to try to give some answer to all of the yahoos that engage in endless speculations on the accident threads, some of which are both comical and cruel.

the endless speculation is because nothing gets released though. when these details DO get released, all that stuff is toned down a lot

[Daedalus]

And Bob, your list pretty well sums it up.

One thing that I want to point out is that nothing in my list is speculation.

I think that's something that should be reserved for individual cave divers to do on their own as part of a personal accident analysis thought exercise (or perhaps in a private conversation with respected peers and mentors). That can't be done unless cave divers are equipped with the 6 things I listed.

I would like everyone who chooses to engage in this activity to be equipped as a thinking cave diver and able to do this thought exercise and self inventory every time there is a fatality in a mindful fashion.



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[bent]

I was given no guidance by the police at any time. Other divers though... different story. VERY clear direction to not say a word.

I would like know why someone is down-thumbing these posts made by AJ. Maybe that someone could show a little spine and say why.

[Dsix36]

I know for a fact that computer downloads help to piece together exactly what happened. I would like them be released to the public.

After my buddy and I had a bad day at the Nest coming back from Revelation space, our downloads answered a lit of questions. I was able to "layer" the two profiles to determine the exact timeframe of each of our actions even while separated. There is no room for guessing because the profiles show the facts.

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[Troglodyver]

If the victim or any other diver in their team was wearing a GoPro, wouldn't it be useful to release the video they captured during the dive? Combined with downloaded computer data, that might give us a clearer idea of what lead up to the fatality.

This would be analogous to a long-standing practice in the aviation community. After an accident investigation is complete, they publish data from the "black boxes." Flight Data Recorder info is analogous to what we'd get from dive computer downloads. The Cockpit Voice Recorder would be analogous to GoPro video from the dive. In aviation, syncing flight data with voice data often provides a good picture of what happened that led up to the incident. Analyzing this has resulted in many aviation safety improvements.

The downsides I see to releasing video would be (a) The video and comments from the community might add to the family's anguish, (b) Parts of the video would likely be frightening as hell to us in the cave diving community, and (c) We'd probably have some in the community use the video to bash the divers' gear config, kick, skills, training agency, color of drysuit, and everything else)

Upsides: (a) In some cases we might actually learn what happened that led to the fatality (lost in a silt-out after a blind jump, wedged in a restriction, gear issue, etc) (b) If the terrifying bits scare us into diving more conservatively, good! (c) We may notice things -- skills, gear, etc. -- that causes us to reconsider own own skills or gear.

[JohnnyC]

I don't have anything to add re:list of desired information. But I definitely want to throw in as another voice with a desire to get all of this information. I think the old IUCRR database as a resource for learning is pretty powerful. It's a shame that information doesn't get released like that anymore. If it makes everyone safer, it should be available.

[tbone1004]

I would like know why someone is down-thumbing these posts made by AJ. Maybe that someone could show a little spine and say why.

I disliked it. I dislike the fact that the "good ol boy" crowd is throwing smoke and mirrors to hide information from getting out to the public and that is what causes all of the speculation. No one in actual real authority is saying not to publish the information, but it's people in our own community that are trying to keep it hidden and it's bullsh!t. If they're concerned about a lawsuit, get insurance for the IUCRR and ask the agencies to help fund the insurance, or roll it into one of the agencies to protect the divers, whatever they want, but it's crazy that the police are required to publish that kind of information and as a community we go out of our way to hide it.

It's not against him, but I'm not going to like a post that is detrimental to our community. Enough spine?