Accident Analysis

[JohnnyC]

AJ, thank you for your past work you have done. For those that haven't done a recovery it is very stressful situation, and not only for the actual recovery in water, but the situation topside. The recovery divers also get a backlash,because once people know they were involved, their phone will ring off the hook from curious parties, which means you relive every hour on the hour.

People want information right away when there is an accident. Question I have, have we avoided any accidents by having instantaneous information, or should I say,a refractory period of getting information out there, has that facilitated another accident? I can truthfully say I know of one situation where rapid information dissemination saved lives, and that was a bad gas incident,but that was the very rare situation and wasn't a true cave diving accident.

Thanks again AJ

I don't think it's so much of an argument that rapid dissemination of information would save lives, rather a lamentation that the status quo seems to be, "be patient, we're getting all the information together, we'll release information when it's ready," only for time to pass and the promised information never actually gets released. I'm not making an argument that we have the right to know anything at all, let alone before the lights are off on the squad cars, but being strung along doesn't really make anyone feel good about it.... By all means everyone needs time to decompress, gather their thoughts, organize the information, etc. I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

It's not that information isn't getting released in a timely manner, it's that information isn't getting released at all. That there's a monopoly on information as dictated by what I guess people are calling the "good ol' boys club," isn't good for anyone. I mean, I guess they like knowing that they're the only people that have the information? I don't understand it. Seems pretty silly to me. It's not like they're nuclear launch codes or the key to the vault at Fort Knox.

[PfcAJ]

?Lawsuits? ?the data belongs to the police? ?active investigation? ?HIPPA?.

[OFG-1]

they were worried about lawsuits in the recovery i participated in

Lawsuits against who? What would the basis be for suing a recovery diver?

[PfcAJ]

Lawsuits against who? What would the basis be for suing a recovery diver?

?\_(ツ)_/

[LiteHedded]

?\_(ツ)_/

this

[rddvet]

There are a couple people involved in recoveries that really enjoy giving out details. That may sound out there or made up but a reality. I avoid people in cave country and generally dont talk to people at dive sites, but I have a couple of "well connected" friends. Anytime an incident occurs, I usually have all of the details by days end and typically immediately. This isnt true for all people involved in recovery, but there are a few who love the attention of being the information holder and enjoy the million texts they receive, and will freely give information to their friends with an assumed "hush hush about it" attached. If my friends dont get their info directly from those involved in the recovery they can easily get it from their friends who are buddies with recovery guys.
I have utmost respect for those involved in recovery and dont intend to detract from what they do. I definitely dont want to do it. But to say there isnt a "good old boys" mentality is incorrect. I actually refer to it as the sewing circle as some of these guys really enjoy to gab it up like my grandma and her friends


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[tbone1004]

Well what do you want me to do? If I just buck the system and go rogue there?s a good chance I wouldn?t be involved in any capacity going forward and then you?d really be up the creek. Real authority is who takes leadership during these situations and calls the shots regarding who gets in the water and actually does something. Show up at 11pm on a Friday and try and negotiate and see how you do.

Any clown with a hammer can tear down a barn. Takes a bit more skill and thought to build one.

I guess "sad" would be better than dislike, but I'm applauding you for doing what you're doing, and disliking the fact that you have to do it and are probably catching flack for doing it. It obviously came across as me disliking what you're doing vs. disliking what others are holding you back from doing, which is fully disclosing the information that we should all be getting in order to make a proper accident analysis. How in the hell are we supposed to analyze accidents, which is something we are taught about in the classes, when the people in charge won't disclose any information? AJ clearly wants to disclose it, if he could, then we would have as much information as anyone could possibly have so we could actually analyze the accident and maybe learn something from it.... Unfortunately, as he wrote above, and that we are all aware of, the first time he did would be the only time we ever actually got all of the information because he'd be kicked out of the "club" and we'd be back at square 1

Ken Hill and the rest of the IUCRR leadership are intentionally preventing the cave diving community from being able to conduct accident analysis. There has been no published incident report since 2015, and the information on that one is completely useless. Those are facts. You may not like them, but they're facts. If they published all of the information, and did it in a timely fashion, we could actually conduct accident analysis, which is something that everyone is taught in their cave course. Is analyzing accidents from the last 3 years which occur with modern equipment, modern diver training, etc. not important compared to analyzing accidents that are actually properly documented from more than a decade ago? As soon as the law enforcement has declared the case closed, everything should be out. The IUCRR should work the the LEO's to publish as much as they can as soon as they can, no different than in the aerospace world so you can actually learn from it. They clearly aren't trying to do that

[kensuf]

If the victim or any other diver in their team was wearing a GoPro, wouldn't it be useful to release the video they captured during the dive? Combined with downloaded computer data, that might give us a clearer idea of what lead up to the fatality.

There are people on the internet that love "snuff films". Aside from making a new episode of "faces of death," I see no reason to release the videos.

Non-speculative information would be great. All the stuff we're supposed to collect -- orientation of the diver, pressure in the cylinders, whether the regs are functioning, etc. can be very helpful. I think certification / training / experience levels are also very useful and important.

On the recoveries I've been involved with I was told not to say a word and that this vow of silence was to protect me in the event a legal action ensues. I have been told there's a 2-year window for a case to be filed. One of the most difficult things I've ever had to do was bite my tongue and stay quiet while a good friend of mine was blasted on Facebook by a flaming a-hole.

[LiteHedded]

There are people on the internet that love "snuff films". Aside from making a new episode of "faces of death," I see no reason to release the videos.

Non-speculative information would be great. All the stuff we're supposed to collect -- orientation of the diver, pressure in the cylinders, whether the regs are functioning, etc. can be very helpful. I think certification / training / experience levels are also very useful and important.

On the recoveries I've been involved with I was told not to say a word and that this vow of silence was to protect me in the event a legal action ensues. I have been told there's a 2-year window for a case to be filed. One of the most difficult things I've ever had to do was bite my tongue and stay quiet while a good friend of mine was blasted on Facebook by a flaming a-hole.

at least with the ginnie recovery, i was told to stfu but then someone who was not part of the recovery team posted a bunch of details. with at least one fact knowingly wrong

[FW]

FWIW, I was at the very first recovery "class". I was the NSS-CDS training director at the time. Henry Nicholson had asked Sheck Exlely and me to set up the class. It is important to understand that Henry was a policeman, and most of what we covered was how to treat the recovery as a "crime scene". The current head of IUCRR is a former US Marshal. The IUCRR is concerned that if the various Sheriff's departments loose faith in the ability of the IUCRR to maintain the crime scene until the investigation is over, that law enforcement agencies won't allow the IUCRR to enter the crime scene. The local Sheriff's departments could go as far as closing the spring, if the local law enforcement isn't able to conduct the recovery themselves.

While I would love for the information listed in earlier posts to become immediately available, I also understand the IUCRR's caution in waiting for law enforcement to declare the case closed. The sad part is that law enforcement is only interested in the possibility of a crime, so once they have determined it was actually an accident, they are in no hurry to declare the case closed.