Accident Analysis

[OFG-1]

Tough to do an accident analysis when the only info you?re givin is bits and pieces of what happened.

Wagons circle up and it?s road block after road block.

I broke this into another thread just for discussion. I would like to have an adult discussion, not a bunch of useless venom being spewed, about what you guys would think the top say 6 things that you would like to see in an accident analysis. And if your answer is "everything", that just dumb and lazy.

AJ, I am picking on you because of the work your team did at the EN accident, and the excellent job the WKPP did reporting Mr. Millers accident. What did you learn from that as far as analysis is concerned?

And Bamafan, if all you want to do is take this as another opportunity to bash the CDS, please just go away. Its become repetitive and boring.

[LiteHedded]

I broke this into another thread just for discussion. I would like to have an adult discussion, not a bunch of useless venom being spewed, about what you guys would think the top say 6 things that you would like to see in an accident analysis. And if your answer is "everything", that just dumb and lazy.

AJ, I am picking on you because of the work your team did at the EN accident, and the excellent job the WKPP did reporting Mr. Millers accident. What did you learn from that as far as analysis is concerned?

And Bamafan, if all you want to do is take this as another opportunity to bash the CDS, please just go away. Its become repetitive and boring.

the stuff in the old IUCRR reports is great for a start.
gas in the tanks, how diver was found, gear he had and condition of it. anything relevant a surviving buddy may have had to say

I know on a recovery i was a part of, i was pressured not to say anything. AJ can confirm

[OFG-1]

I know on a recovery i was a part of, i was pressured not to say anything. AJ can confirm

I think that is pretty typical, I have had the same experience. I was told it was to not prejudiced the investigation, although you are never told when the investigation is over. I have been told the medical findings are protected by Hipaa and other privacy laws unless the family releases them.

And if everyone starts off by being a jackass on the internet, to the deceased and the family, they have no reason to share anything, particularly if a legal procedure is pending.

And Bob, your list pretty well sums it up.

[LiteHedded]

I think that is pretty typical, I have had the same experience. I was told it was to not prejudiced the investigation, although you are never told when the investigation is over. I have been told the medical findings are protected by Hipaa and other privacy laws unless the family releases them.

And if everyone starts off by being a jackass on the internet, or to the deceased and the family, they have no reason to share anything, particularly if a legal procedure is pending.

not by the police. she didnt seem to care.
by other divers

[PfcAJ]

I think that is pretty typical, I have had the same experience. I was told it was to not prejudiced the investigation, although you are never told when the investigation is over. I have been told the medical findings are protected by Hipaa and other privacy laws unless the family releases them.

And if everyone starts off by being a jackass on the internet, or to the deceased and the family, they have no reason to share anything, particularly if a legal procedure is pending.

And Bob, your list pretty well sums it up.

I was given no guidance by the police at any time. Other divers though... different story. VERY clear direction to not say a word.

[bent]

I was given no guidance by the police at any time. Other divers though... different story. VERY clear direction to not say a word.

I would like know why someone is down-thumbing these posts made by AJ. Maybe that someone could show a little spine and say why.

[Troglodyver]

If the victim or any other diver in their team was wearing a GoPro, wouldn't it be useful to release the video they captured during the dive? Combined with downloaded computer data, that might give us a clearer idea of what lead up to the fatality.

This would be analogous to a long-standing practice in the aviation community. After an accident investigation is complete, they publish data from the "black boxes." Flight Data Recorder info is analogous to what we'd get from dive computer downloads. The Cockpit Voice Recorder would be analogous to GoPro video from the dive. In aviation, syncing flight data with voice data often provides a good picture of what happened that led up to the incident. Analyzing this has resulted in many aviation safety improvements.

The downsides I see to releasing video would be (a) The video and comments from the community might add to the family's anguish, (b) Parts of the video would likely be frightening as hell to us in the cave diving community, and (c) We'd probably have some in the community use the video to bash the divers' gear config, kick, skills, training agency, color of drysuit, and everything else)

Upsides: (a) In some cases we might actually learn what happened that led to the fatality (lost in a silt-out after a blind jump, wedged in a restriction, gear issue, etc) (b) If the terrifying bits scare us into diving more conservatively, good! (c) We may notice things -- skills, gear, etc. -- that causes us to reconsider own own skills or gear.

[tbone1004]

I would like know why someone is down-thumbing these posts made by AJ. Maybe that someone could show a little spine and say why.

I disliked it. I dislike the fact that the "good ol boy" crowd is throwing smoke and mirrors to hide information from getting out to the public and that is what causes all of the speculation. No one in actual real authority is saying not to publish the information, but it's people in our own community that are trying to keep it hidden and it's bullsh!t. If they're concerned about a lawsuit, get insurance for the IUCRR and ask the agencies to help fund the insurance, or roll it into one of the agencies to protect the divers, whatever they want, but it's crazy that the police are required to publish that kind of information and as a community we go out of our way to hide it.

It's not against him, but I'm not going to like a post that is detrimental to our community. Enough spine?

[Kelly Jessop]

I was given no guidance by the police at any time. Other divers though... different story. VERY clear direction to not say a word.

AJ, thank you for your past work you have done. For those that haven't done a recovery it is very stressful situation, and not only for the actual recovery in water, but the situation topside. The recovery divers also get a backlash,because once people know they were involved, their phone will ring off the hook from curious parties, which means you relive every hour on the hour.

People want information right away when there is an accident. Question I have, have we avoided any accidents by having instantaneous information, or should I say,a refractory period of getting information out there, has that facilitated another accident? I can truthfully say I know of one situation where rapid information dissemination saved lives, and that was a bad gas incident,but that was the very rare situation and wasn't a true cave diving accident.

Thanks again AJ

[PfcAJ]

AJ, thank you for your past work you have done. For those that haven't done a recovery it is very stressful situation, and not only for the actual recovery in water, but the situation topside. The recovery divers also get a backlash,because once people know they were involved, their phone will ring off the hook from curious parties, which means you relive every hour on the hour.

People want information right away when there is an accident. Question I have, have we avoided any accidents by having instantaneous information, or should I say,a refractory period of getting information out there, has that facilitated another accident? I can truthfully say I know of one situation where rapid information dissemination saved lives, and that was a bad gas incident,but that was the very rare situation and wasn't a true cave diving accident.

Thanks again AJ

I can’t reaosnably conclude what impact speed in reporting has. But I suspect that people’s interest really cools and the result is no one pressing for the info to be released. So it isn’t.