Accident Analysis

[OFG-1]

Tough to do an accident analysis when the only info you?re givin is bits and pieces of what happened.

Wagons circle up and it?s road block after road block.

I broke this into another thread just for discussion. I would like to have an adult discussion, not a bunch of useless venom being spewed, about what you guys would think the top say 6 things that you would like to see in an accident analysis. And if your answer is "everything", that just dumb and lazy.

AJ, I am picking on you because of the work your team did at the EN accident, and the excellent job the WKPP did reporting Mr. Millers accident. What did you learn from that as far as analysis is concerned?

And Bamafan, if all you want to do is take this as another opportunity to bash the CDS, please just go away. Its become repetitive and boring.

[LiteHedded]

I broke this into another thread just for discussion. I would like to have an adult discussion, not a bunch of useless venom being spewed, about what you guys would think the top say 6 things that you would like to see in an accident analysis. And if your answer is "everything", that just dumb and lazy.

AJ, I am picking on you because of the work your team did at the EN accident, and the excellent job the WKPP did reporting Mr. Millers accident. What did you learn from that as far as analysis is concerned?

And Bamafan, if all you want to do is take this as another opportunity to bash the CDS, please just go away. Its become repetitive and boring.

the stuff in the old IUCRR reports is great for a start.
gas in the tanks, how diver was found, gear he had and condition of it. anything relevant a surviving buddy may have had to say

I know on a recovery i was a part of, i was pressured not to say anything. AJ can confirm

[Daedalus]

1. Certification information as to involved parties, if known;
2. Experience of involved parties in terms of total number of dives, number of prior dives at incident location, as well as recent dives prior to incident, if known;
3. Equipment inventory of involved parties;
4. Environment inventory of incident location, reported locations of involved parties, reported observations of cave and line conditions;
5. Witness statements, if available; and
6. Computer downloads from involved parties, if available.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[PfcAJ]

I broke this into another thread just for discussion. I would like to have an adult discussion, not a bunch of useless venom being spewed, about what you guys would think the top say 6 things that you would like to see in an accident analysis. And if your answer is "everything", that just dumb and lazy.

AJ, I am picking on you because of the work your team did at the EN accident, and the excellent job the WKPP did reporting Mr. Millers accident. What did you learn from that as far as analysis is concerned?

And Bamafan, if all you want to do is take this as another opportunity to bash the CDS, please just go away. Its become repetitive and boring.

Not sure I can come up with 6 line items.

All objective information that was collected should be published. On the past 2 recoveries I have been a direct part of, I took DETAILED notes. I think all of that should be released. Position of the diver, equipment state, gas situation (volume, analysis on the tank, actual analyzed content), state of the regulators, mask, lights, scooters, etc. While most details were released on those two, I know not all of them were. In one case I actually think a detail that wasn’t released had an impact on the outcome of the deceased diver. I wish that could be shared. But...

One thing hat I’ve never been able to get is a computer download. There’s a lot that can be shown from that. Significant delays, rebreather po2. I think we could really get a good handle on how things transpired with a level of detail that we currently just don’t have. My notes only give what I find and can immediately observe.

The pressure recovery divers get to not say anything is really astounding to me. It makes a bad situation worse. I truly believe there’s lessons to be learned or reinforced from all of these. The 5 rules are good. But there’s more to it than that.

[tbone1004]

I've only got 5...

1. specific location, orientation, and condition of body
2. certification level of diver
3. equipment inventory including what was found on the body and the contents of the tanks/ccr, any staged bottles with their contents and location. Mask on/off, equipment generally disarrayed etc etc.
4. dive computer profile *super easy now with most of us diving Shearwaters to be able to display the graph which can tell a lot*
5. witness statements

if all of that was published, we'd be able to have a lot better discussion and I think the computer profile would actually sort out most of the commentary that happens afterwards as AJ said above. The information is all there, it just isn't released, and I truly have no idea why because if it was being done by say a police department dive team it would legally have to be published

[PfcAJ]

1. Certification information as to involved parties, if known;
2. Experience of involved parties in terms of total number of dives, number of prior dives at incident location, as well as recent dives prior to incident, if known;
3. Equipment inventory of involved parties;
4. Environment inventory of incident location, reported locations of involved parties, reported observations of cave and line conditions;
5. Witness statements, if available; and
6. Computer downloads from involved parties, if available.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Yes. This.

[OFG-1]

I know on a recovery i was a part of, i was pressured not to say anything. AJ can confirm

I think that is pretty typical, I have had the same experience. I was told it was to not prejudiced the investigation, although you are never told when the investigation is over. I have been told the medical findings are protected by Hipaa and other privacy laws unless the family releases them.

And if everyone starts off by being a jackass on the internet, to the deceased and the family, they have no reason to share anything, particularly if a legal procedure is pending.

And Bob, your list pretty well sums it up.

[LiteHedded]

I think that is pretty typical, I have had the same experience. I was told it was to not prejudiced the investigation, although you are never told when the investigation is over. I have been told the medical findings are protected by Hipaa and other privacy laws unless the family releases them.

And if everyone starts off by being a jackass on the internet, or to the deceased and the family, they have no reason to share anything, particularly if a legal procedure is pending.

not by the police. she didnt seem to care.
by other divers

[PfcAJ]

oh also what currently is happening is only a handful of local divers really get the full scoop on what happened. So pretty much anyone that lives south of Tampa, west of Tallahassee, north of Lake City, or east of Orlando doesn’t get the full deal. It’s a total disservice to cave divers.

[PfcAJ]

I think that is pretty typical, I have had the same experience. I was told it was to not prejudiced the investigation, although you are never told when the investigation is over. I have been told the medical findings are protected by Hipaa and other privacy laws unless the family releases them.

And if everyone starts off by being a jackass on the internet, or to the deceased and the family, they have no reason to share anything, particularly if a legal procedure is pending.

And Bob, your list pretty well sums it up.

I was given no guidance by the police at any time. Other divers though... different story. VERY clear direction to not say a word.