More on the concept of leaving the agency days behind the CDS

[cerich]

I'll try and hit each one here...

I dont see how eliminating certification which is education does any good for the organization? makes the intentions of the CDS in regards to training be above reproach. It isn't one agency saying the rest of them are crap. It also eliminates the perception among many certified by agencies other than the CDS that the CDS is for the CDS certified folks.

Because the market is so small and 5 or 6 other agencies certify cave divers who's really going to cave about becoming "accredited" by the CDS? Well you have the top instructors in the world on the committee, lots of instructors like being recognized as "top of game" and it would become that being invited to join the training committee was a great honor.

Wouldn't some be insulted and view it as arrogant to give up a training program yet offer accreditation? There would seem to be an inherent hypocrisy, we're so good we dont need to teach? Some people are already insulted... . The people that are in the training committee, those overseeing the accreditation process will all be active and highly respected instructors. It isn't saying were so good we don't need to teach, it's saying that there is a degree of professionalism and expertise that is attainable regardless of agency affiliation and we strive to personify and encourage excellence.

Now lets assume that this happens, how is the CDS going to separate themselves from everyone else? Would offering expedition level mentorships make sense? I'm thinking out load? They already separated themselves by stepping back from issuing c cards, other aspects of the association also take a more high profile face of the agency. Expeditions, mapping projects, conservation efforts, land access, broad based educational efforts (from clinics on cave diving related activities and skills to talking at the local elementary school).

Chris, I couldn't agree with your above comment more, you hit the nail on the head.

These questions havent been answered:

I dont see how eliminating certification which is education does any good for the organization?

Because the market is so small and 5 or 6 other agencies certify cave divers who's really going to cave about becoming "accredited" by the CDS?

Wouldn't some be insulted and view it as arrogant to give up a training program yet offer accreditation? There would seem to be an inherent hypocrisy, we're so good we dont need to teach?


Now lets assume that this happens, how is the CDS going to separate themselves from everyone else? Would offering expedition level mentorships make sense? I'm thinking out load?

Granted that involves very high risk diving even for the very experienced but thtat would certainly stand out?

[CGriffing]

All with no proof that it will work.

What is your plan to handle the lawsuits against the new accrediting organization that are sure to come when those who fail to gain accreditation or those who lose accreditation fight back with legal action?

[cerich]

I don't see that as much of a issue, it's voluntary, they sign waivers and a pre-learning agreement that spells out that accreditation is earned and can be revoked.

People can sue anytime they want, that is part of living in the US. However I don't worry about getting sued when I fail a student or tell a instructor candidate (rec or tec) that they aren't there yet.

All with no proof that it will work.

What is your plan to handle the lawsuits against the new accrediting organization that are sure to come when those who fail to gain accreditation or those who lose accreditation fight back with legal action?

[CGriffing]

Lawsuits against accrediting organizations seems to be common. Why expect this to be different? This could affect some of the instructors' livelihoods, meaning more of a reason or basis for legal action.

[cerich]

I don't share your concerns.

Lawsuits against accrediting organizations seems to be common. Why expect this to be different? This could affect some of the instructors' livelihoods.

[CGriffing]

So, again, no plan simply because you believe things will work the way you envision. But what if they don't?

[cerich]

I really don't see the CDS being involved in accreditation as incurring more liability than them being a training agency that does NOT carry liability insurance for training and has Instructors who carry other agencies liability insurance teaching CDS classes and issuing CDS certifications in for course that may or may not be covered under the other agency insurance policies. Especially when the CDS standards are not even able to be evaluated by the agencies under which the instructors carry liability insurance. That shouts DANGER DANGER WILL ROBINSON to me already. I think under my plan the CDS is far LESS exposed to legal risk.

I'm off to watch TV with the wife, be safe

So, again, no plan simply because you believe things will work the way you envision. But what if they don't?

[jebernot]

I have generally stayed away from posting on here, because I have more important things to do . i.e. dive. I chose to become an instructor of the NSS_CDS because it had a long standing reputation as an agency, yes a cave training agency, and I wanted to be seen as one of the true cave instructors. I remember when I approached my future sponsor to discuss becoming an intern, another future cave instructor with another organization made a comment about... "go with such and such, it's easier"...

It took me about 9 months of effort to finally become a cave instructor. This after being a technical instructor and having certified 700 students at various levels. I am curious what are the requirements to become an instructor for some of the other agencies? What is better about them or their instructor trainers than other agencies and why some feel the need to attack an agency that contributes so much?

I will say this, I worked hard to get my technical instructor certification with PADI, but I was disgusted when I showed up at the grotto several months later to see one of the students going through the TEC DEEP Class I was 'Co-teaching' for my instructor course teaching a TEC DEEP class of his own. As a course director that made him an instructor trainer. So is this the pipeline we want for cave instruction too?

Maybe instead of criticizing our own organization we should simply deny the certification's issued from others? I.E> it was my impression certain dive sites were only to be dove by people with a full cave card from the NSS-CDS or NACD, ... I'd even extend that to GUE... point is quality. For NSS_CDS owned dive sites why should you get access to a CDS_NSS site if you didn't even bother to get a card from our agency.

SO About those standards to become cave instructors from other agencies???

[MDiver429]

My insurance is for me as a dive professional. I can list any agencies or dive sites I use or teach for and those are covered. I do not buy specific insurance for one agency. All agencies I am aware of require you to carry your own insurance or work for a shop if they have instructors as their staff who they pay the insurance for. I am also not aware of any agencies that actually offer insurance themselves. I know Padi advertises Valencia but there is also Witherspoon and others. Those insurance companies are not directly affiliated with one agency and will insure any dive professional.

I am not sure if this is what you were speaking of so I apologize if my information is incorrect here or if my information is irrelevant.

[TeddyB]

Looks like a repeat of the NACD story