More on the concept of leaving the agency days behind the CDS

[CGriffing]

Chris, we discussed opportunities last Saturday over dinner after the workshop. You and I both discussed that we have first hand witnessed situations where instructors were certified by agencies without meeting the requirements. What kind of instructor will they be; what kind of students will they, and have they, produced?

Take a look at Bobby's thread that he posted this morning. He makes a lot of good points.

[cerich]

OK, that's a starting point for sure, I suspect it's more of just identifying the problem than opportunity however. How do we get there? We can't force agencies or instructors to suddenly do a good job. We can't force students to seek out better not easier training...

We can however try and set up a system that rewards good behavior and is non partisan. That's really hard when the agencies (in case you missed that first time ) perceive the CDS as a competing training agency.

By the way, in case I am not 100% clear, I have no problem or issues with how the CDS makes Instructors or teaches cave diving.

Chris, we discussed opportunities last Saturday over dinner after the workshop. You and I both discussed that we have first hand witnessed situations where instructors were certified by agencies without meeting the requirements. What kind of instructor will they be; what kind of students will they, and have they, produced?

Take a look at Bobby's thread that he posted this morning. He makes a lot of good points.

[CGriffing]

Knock off the snippy comments if you wish to have a mature, professional debate.

I don't see accreditation as solving the problem, either. Agencies will still train cave instructors, and cave instructors will teach without having the accreditation. So, how does that really solve anything?

[Richard Atyeo]

$21,000 in profit for the CDS.
I would take 21k in profit

[cerich]

Carl, it's not being snippy. Go back and look at the mouth of the little yellow dude I put after my comment in parentheses, it was turned upwards in a smile and a pretty common way to indicate having fun, making a joke, teasing as it were. If you want to take offense at it that's your issue not mine.

To the accreditation issue and your question... to sum up what I have said here before. Good instructors will do it, students will start to look for it and it becomes a higher standard that is non partisan and exportable on a global scale. It broadens the influence of the CDS and because it is not vested self interest it holds more weight. We grow a more inclusive association of cave divers, not a association of "x" certified divers (there are enough of those) with the bigger picture in mind.

Yup, crappy instructors will still teach crappy courses but eventually they will only be getting students that are OK with getting less than a gold standard. It's peer pressure plain and simple.

Knock off the snippy comments if you wish to have a mature, professional debate.

I don't see accreditation as solving the problem, either. Agencies will still train cave instructors, and cave instructors will teach without having the accreditation. So, how does that really solve anything?

[cerich]

even if we could pull more profit by not being a cert agency?

$21,000 in profit for the CDS.
I would take 21k in profit

[CGriffing]

Carl, it's not being snippy. Go back and look at the mouth of the little yellow dude I put after my comment in parentheses, it was turned upwards in a smile and a pretty common way to indicate having fun, making a joke, teasing as it were. If you want to take offense at it that's your issue not mine.

I don't take offense to it, it just diminishes you and your argument. Again, you presume to know what I am thinking. Just stop and debate the issues is all I ask. What you think of me is none of my concern, and if you have a problem with me, then that is your problem, not mine.

[Leam]

Chris,

When I was talking to others about the CDS they explained how CDS has had some of the same issues as NACD was reported to have more recently had. Whether or not that's true is almost irrelevant; the people speaking were long time cavers and CDS did not have a reputation of self-regulation and improvement.

Until CDS builds the brand of "Golden standard"by self-policing instructors, solid training, good exploration and wide-spread education then nothing will be relevant about CDS. It will remain "one more agency". If the CDS chooses to not issue cards then it will become irrelevant even faster.

Think of it as a business. Because it is. Money must come in so money can go out. CDS needs to have a good product that is well marketed and backed by a solid reputation.

Leam

[Leam]

even if we could pull more profit by not being a cert agency?

I see no way to do so that excludes CDS from also being a cert agency. None of the accreditation stuff you've proposed interests me as a student. I would evaluate instructors after dealing with them personally. What stickies they have makes no real difference to me.

Leam

[kotik]

I see no way to do so that excludes CDS from also being a cert agency. None of the accreditation stuff you've proposed interests me as a student. I would evaluate instructors after dealing with them personally. What stickies they have makes no real difference to me.

Leam

Sorry Leam, but haven't you heard? As a student in the new era, past the golden age when training was good, you must necessarily be a product of poor training, and surely could have no hope of knowing what you would want as a new enlightened student in a newer, more enlightened, post-CDS utopia. Please move along...