Interesting conversation at Manatee (with a new Ranger)

[Jont]

The only way I can think of that any park personnel is going know what scooters do or don't do is by what they hear from cave divers. Seems we're the problem, not the park people.

Thats a fair statement, but what cave divers? The special interest groups or the community in general? The special interest groups, especially the GUE gods, are very effective because they're organized and truth be told they have a very well run and professional organization that encompasses almost every aspect of diving so it makes sense that they get special treatment.

WHat most people do is sit back and then complain once and event unfolds that isn't to their liking. Remember the last WAKULA meeting, the opposition never had a chance, defeat was inevitable before the public hearing was even scheduled.

What these groups that seek restricted access, special permission all have in common is that they know how to work the system from middle to upper management, they're patient and dont complain, public displays of support like the Wakula hearing are established after the fact once management is onboard with the plan and used simply to sway lay people that have no real interest in the activity.

In short they're just better "go" players.

[Kelly Jessop]

I was told the reason we have to be out of Peacock 3 1/2 hours before sundown in the summer is so the rangers don't have to eat supper late.

No,it is so they don't generate overtime. You wouldn't believe the number of times the rangers have to sit there on their own time while waiting for a team that got started late to leave. We grumble,but I hear the other side,and I know if I get off work,I don't want to stay an 1 1/2 hours extra due to carelessness on the part of othere.

[Jont]

Perhaps if you want to get off work at 5pm, applying for a job at a park that closes at sunset isn't the best career path for you?

SO what start time are you suggesting? 12 Noon? 8 hours is the customary work day. and if you're suggesting that they add staff, who pays for that? You, me?

In a state that has no income tax how does that work?

How many people out there would be willing to write say a 100 check every month so that diving for all is more accessible?

[Jont]

No,it is so they don't generate overtime. You wouldn't believe the number of times the rangers have to sit there on their own time while waiting for a team that got started late to leave. We grumble,but I hear the other side,and I know if I get off work,I don't want to stay an 1 1/2 hours extra due to carelessness on the part of othere.

I know that Forrest and of course thats the "real" answer, the point I was making is that this in part is an economic answer so how pays?

[Kelly Jessop]

The only way I can think of that any park personnel is going know what scooters do or don't do is by what they hear from cave divers. Seems we're the problem, not the park people.

Yep,there is some truth about this. A lot of what we say is really misinterpreted,and I get asked a lot of questions. For example a couple years ago someone posted on CDF that they "trashed the Nicholson tunnel" (yes park staff read these forums). They had images of broken limestone and damage,but really the person was talking about some silt being kicked up,and no real harm. When the Wakulla hearings came up,another group presented cave diving damage and grafitti completely out of context,but for the purpose to discredit. This information was incorrect,but it did leave a lasting impression that has resonated upstairs. Yes,you are right,we are the problem frequently.

[Kelly Jessop]

In reference to DPVs. Many years ago Peacock had it in their management to stop DPV usage,but it was never taken care of by the then park manager. When they got a new park manager,he read the management plan and enforced the no scooter rule at Peacock. This upset a lot of people,but most didn't realize it had been in the plan for several years. I looked at Manatee's plan,which is online,and they do voice some concern for cave damage related to equipment,but DPVs are not mentioned specifically. Their last management plan was 2004,so they are due one,and this may be where some of the rules are coming from. When a new management plan is released the community has an opportunity to make comments before the plan is adopted. What I do see is trying to get consistency at all state parks,and the state feels scooters cause damage.

[chilldive]

I guess what I'm suggesting is that while I see a lot of talk about what the agencies are doing "to" us with restrictions and such, by only focusing there, we're dealing with the symptoms and not necessarilly all of the cause. An organization like WKPP is probably policing themselves so there's limited misinterpretation of statements. But on an open forum, that's easily accessible by anyone, well...you get the point. Not picking on the forum, cause its a good source of info and communication, just stating the obvious. I really hate to see things like what is happening at Manatee, when statements on this forum (and others) could be a portion of the source of concern. The agencies are just reacting to what they are told or read.

[w ripley]

In reference to DPVs. . .When a new management plan is released the community has an opportunity to make comments before the plan is adopted. What I do see is trying to get consistency at all state parks,and the state feels scooters cause damage.

I haven't done any research, but I would bet that some things are allowed at some parks and not at others. One thing is for sure and that is if cave divers just sit on these forums, having conversations like the one going on here, then nothing will get done. However, if cave divers presented an organized request to the state, in an thoughtful and well-orchestrated manner (that means a lot of us have to participate), at least our positions would be heard. There are definately some places you could run a scooter and some you should not. Experienced people who cave dive are capable of presenting that argument.

Kelly, you seem to do a lot of good things. I've noticed, however, that when it comes to talking about presenting new ideas to the state that you tend pour a little water on the kindling. Could just be my impression, but a similar thing happened when we were discussing solo diving at state parks a year or so ago. Could be you have a long list of important things you are trying to get done and just don't want cave divers to muddy the water up with other requests for what might be seen as long shots. If that is true, then it's certainly understandable. Or, I could just be dead wrong, Still, DPVs, solo diving, and I'm sure there are one or two others, are things that really are important to us, and the way I see it - from afar - is that no one is talking to the people who pull the strings, but rather just talking to the people who man the gates.

If it's time for a new management plan, then the cave diving community needs to be a part of it. If we just sit back and let the administrators come up with what they "think" is a good plan, no matter how well intentioned, then the odds are we're not going to have a very large part in that final plan.

Like it or not, cave diving has and is evolving every year. If we cave divers don't educate the no-diving people who control the parks, then we have no one to blame but ourselves.

[Kelly Jessop]

I've noticed, however, that when it comes to talking about presenting new ideas to the state that you tend pour a little water on the kindling. Could just be my impression, but a similar thing happened when we were discussing solo diving at state parks a year or so ago. Could be you have a long list of important things you are trying to get done and just don't want cave divers to muddy the water up with other requests for what might be seen as long shots.
.

I've never runaway from a challange,but some of these things you mention, there has been previous energies exerted to correct with no results. I can continue to exert efforts for causes that are unlikely to change with present ideals,but then that is all I will do. My intent is not to "pour water on the kindling",but give explanations for things. I am more than content to step aside for anybody who wants to champion these issues if I am out of touch,because a little extra time in my life and few extra dives would be wonderful.

[w ripley]

Kelly, I just responded to a PM attesting to your abilities and good intentions & I know from working with you a year or so ago how much you put yourself into what you do.

My point is that to make a change at the state level requires an on-going education program. If it doesn't start, then the "myths" the law makers have will never change. If we accept that DPVs will not be allowed, that solo diving will not be allowed, that this or that can't be done, then we've already lost. It's never going to happen if we - we cave divers - don't start making an intelligent argument and asking for it.

A lot of "progress" has been made in every field when the general consensus was that it wouldn't. It just takes a start and time.