Interesting conversation at Manatee (with a new Ranger)

[Kelly Jessop]

Kelly, I just responded to a PM attesting to your abilities and good intentions & I know from working with you a year or so ago how much you put yourself into what you do.

My point is that to make a change at the state level requires an on-going education program. If it doesn't start, then the "myths" the law makers have will never change. If we accept that DPVs will not be allowed, that solo diving will not be allowed, that this or that can't be done, then we've already lost. It's never going to happen if we - we cave divers - don't start making an intelligent argument and asking for it.

A lot of "progress" has been made in every field when the general consensus was that it wouldn't. It just takes a start and time.

I agree. The education process is really needed. I have done it both with direct communication and indirectly through publications. Sometimes if seems like moving a hill of sand,take one handfull and two more come back,because once you educate one person,then there are 20 more that need it,but once those 20 are done,there is an administration change. The solo diving issue will be hard to change because it will take the open water dive industry making a wholesale philosphical change. They have taught the buddy system for as long as there has been open water training,and this has become accepted safety standard,which is adopted by the state parks. if all the open water agencies will support solo diving at their lowest level,then this could possibly be changed. As far as DPV use,the predominant thought is scooters cause damage. I have talked ad nauseum that scooters can preserve cave because it reduces physical contact,especially high flow situations. Unfortuantely,this tree has really taken root,and doesn't want to change. Can it be changed-yes,but will take a lot of positive education at all levels,with empirical proof. I really appreciate your challange of the status quo,because that is how we as cave divers advance the sport. I am not adverse to challanging the status quo,but just choose my battles a little more carefully. Thanks for the reply.

[harmstrong]

In a state that has no income tax how does that work?

More tourists.

[w ripley]

I'm going to stop after this post, but there are a couple of points that could be useful to our elected officials. It may be that the scuba industry has already provided the cover (like in cover their you-know-what) they need:

1. Cave diving at state parks is currently limited to people who have cave-diving cards, or "their cover."
2. Solo diving has been taught by many (maybe now most) scuba agencies for several years, and could be the requirement for solo diving in state parks, or "their cover."
3. Cave DPV has been taught by many scuba agencies for several years - which attest to a high level of awareness & ability of the operator - and could be the requirement for their use in state parks that allow them, or "their cover."

Cavers may not like having to spend the money to get a solo or a cave DPV card - who liked spending the money to get their cave card? - but at least it would give those that chose a path to follow, while - most importantly - giving "cover" to elected officials and/or park administrators. Cover is usually what they're looking for. Maybe more so with the solo thing than the DPV, but I think you see where I'm going.

I'm sure the collective "we" could come up with a persuasive discussion (with statistics on solo vs. team diving & statistics or something of some kind on DPVs in caves).

Anyway, thanks for all you do for us. Let us know what we can do to help you.

[ams511]

I guess using this is out of the question: http://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/spo/3636277036.html

[Jont]

This is unlikely to be popular, but I'm not sure that referring to disturbing mud as "damage" is really helpful in terms of access and management. It might be unsightly to some cave divers and is indicative or poor technique, but it is not damage in the same context as breaking formations or rubbing off goethite (the black deposits on cave walls). Unfortunately, the only thing that non-diving cave and park managers hear is "damage."

Well stated, but if I agree with you it wont be popular.

[Jont]

I haven't done any research, but I would bet that some things are allowed at some parks and not at others. One thing is for sure and that is if cave divers just sit on these forums, having conversations like the one going on here, then nothing will get done. However, if cave divers presented an organized request to the state, in an thoughtful and well-orchestrated manner (that means a lot of us have to participate), at least our positions would be heard. There are definately some places you could run a scooter and some you should not. Experienced people who cave dive are capable of presenting that argument.

Kelly, you seem to do a lot of good things. I've noticed, however, that when it comes to talking about presenting new ideas to the state that you tend pour a little water on the kindling. Could just be my impression, but a similar thing happened when we were discussing solo diving at state parks a year or so ago. Could be you have a long list of important things you are trying to get done and just don't want cave divers to muddy the water up with other requests for what might be seen as long shots. If that is true, then it's certainly understandable. Or, I could just be dead wrong, Still, DPVs, solo diving, and I'm sure there are one or two others, are things that really are important to us, and the way I see it - from afar - is that no one is talking to the people who pull the strings, but rather just talking to the people who man the gates.

If it's time for a new management plan, then the cave diving community needs to be a part of it. If we just sit back and let the administrators come up with what they "think" is a good plan, no matter how well intentioned, then the odds are we're not going to have a very large part in that final plan.

Like it or not, cave diving has and is evolving every year. If we cave divers don't educate the no-diving people who control the parks, then we have no one to blame but ourselves.

Bill,

If theirs such a thing as a perfect statement on a forum yours would be it, and you are 100% correct Kelly and Forrest do much. i've always bee impressed with Mr. Jessops ability to distribute complete and timely news letters in association with his charity, and I say charity because if the general public knew of the potential value and ultimate goal of any cave diving organization it would qualify for "charitable" status and rightfully so. Florida is the nations fourth wealthiest state and is also a tourist destination, what would happen to the state and the nation if tap water started to produce salt water.........nothing good thats for sure.

Bill, you and I are in similar situations we love cave diving but we don't live in Florida so its tough for people like us to help affect positive change but how can people like you and me help to become part of an effort to educate, promote and protect our resources that are specific to cave diving?

Its a question that I cant begin to answer and to date my efforts have been largely critical with the exception of maybe 2000 in donations total to various organizations but money and critique only go so far.

Jonathan

[Benthic]

This is unlikely to be popular, but I'm not sure that referring to disturbing mud as "damage" is really helpful in terms of access and management. It might be unsightly to some cave divers and is indicative or poor technique, but it is not damage in the same context as breaking formations or rubbing off goethite (the black deposits on cave walls). Unfortunately, the only thing that non-diving cave and park managers hear is "damage."

I'll go you one further. In the grand scheme of things even breaking formations or rubbing off goethite isn't really damage to the resource. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for such things at all. It burns me up when I see fin marks, hand prints and the like. But the reality is that those things don't detract at all from the real resource which is the quality of the water. Yes they are unsightly and to be avoided at all costs. But they have zero effect on the water quality and the aquifer water levels and THOSE things are what is really important. If the state REALLY wanted to protect the natural resources that our springs represent, they'd be looking at pollution from run-off and damage caused by excessive draw down from bottling plants and wells. Cave divers wouldn't even be on their radar as we have almost zero effect on the actual resource. I think we get pointed at unfairly. Case in point: The locals at the Wakulla hearing who claimed we would ruin Wakulla Springs. The run off from their lawns, septic systems, and the Tallahassee spray fields have a far, FAR greater impact than cave divers ever would. If they would seek to protect Wakulla, they should look in the mirror.

Brian

[Jont]

I'll go you one further. In the grand scheme of things even breaking formations or rubbing off goethite isn't really damage to the resource. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for such things at all. It burns me up when I see fin marks, hand prints and the like. But the reality is that those things don't detract at all from the real resource which is the quality of the water. Yes they are unsightly and to be avoided at all costs. But they have zero effect on the water quality and the aquifer water levels and THOSE things are what is really important. If the state REALLY wanted to protect the natural resources that our springs represent, they'd be looking at pollution from run-off and damage caused by excessive draw down from bottling plants and wells. Cave divers wouldn't even be on their radar as we have almost zero effect on the actual resource. I think we get pointed at unfairly. Case in point: The locals at the Wakulla hearing who claimed we would ruin Wakulla Springs. The run off from their lawns, septic systems, and the Tallahassee spray fields have a far, FAR greater impact than cave divers ever would. If they would seek to protect Wakulla, they should look in the mirror.

Brian

Brian,

You are wise beyond you years, Its a pleasure to read such a rational post.

Most people that condemn those that make the inconsequential mistake in a cave are really just sad people that need to feel good about themselves, they subscribe to the extreme "green" view thats based on anything but science, take pity on them, they need it.

JOnathan

[sskasser]

... you are 100% correct Kelly and Forrest do much. ....

Bill, you and I are in similar situations we love cave diving but we don't live in Florida so its tough for people like us to help affect positive change but how can people like you and me help to become part of an effort to educate, promote and protect our resources that are specific to cave diving?

....
Jonathan

Neither Kelly nor Forrest live in Florida. Geography need not be a limiting factor for positive contributions.

[Kelly Jessop]

I'll go you one further. In the grand scheme of things even breaking formations or rubbing off goethite isn't really damage to the resource. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for such things at all. It burns me up when I see fin marks, hand prints and the like. But the reality is that those things don't detract at all from the real resource which is the quality of the water. Yes they are unsightly and to be avoided at all costs. But they have zero effect on the water quality and the aquifer water levels and THOSE things are what is really important. If the state REALLY wanted to protect the natural resources that our springs represent, they'd be looking at pollution from run-off and damage caused by excessive draw down from bottling plants and wells. Cave divers wouldn't even be on their radar as we have almost zero effect on the actual resource. I think we get pointed at unfairly. Case in point: The locals at the Wakulla hearing who claimed we would ruin Wakulla Springs. The run off from their lawns, septic systems, and the Tallahassee spray fields have a far, FAR greater impact than cave divers ever would. If they would seek to protect Wakulla, they should look in the mirror.

Brian

We agree partially,and I will explain. As a diver we want clear water,we will alter dive plans to get water clarity. You are correct Florida needs to do more to protect the water quality,and this will impact clarity,with your example of Wakulla/Tallahassee spray fields being perfect. But,we are also cavers,and we carry the responsibility to protect that resource,hence rubbing goethite or breaking a formation is cave damage. The larger cave organization,the NSS has set the philosophy of caving as far as how we treat this resource,and frequently whether we like it,the general public applies this to us. One thing is the primary land owner of caves defines damage as all of the above-hand prints,fin prints,goethite being rubbed etc etc,this is regardless of what we consider damage. Carrying capacity of cave systems is determined by many factors,but damage is the end result that sets this bar,hence,if a cave system that allows x number of teams per day,could potentially drop it to x-2. YES,these discussions really go on,and there is a program in place that monitors cave damage at the popular cave sites. I am not trying to change your or anybody's ideas,but generate awareness,because if we don't show the utmost respect for both resources,water quality,and cave conservation,then we will pay the price of either inability to dive because of poor water conditions,or limited access due to attrition. Why do I mention this,yeah I had a call from an agency in Tallahassee last week making inquiries about the number of cave divers that are acceptable for a particular system,and relative to cave dive impact-at no time did they concern themselves with water quality(unfortunately),but more concerned with the other contact mentioned previously.