Hog loop on a CCR

[rddvet]

For what it's worth I'm not anywhere close to GUE nor do I dive a "GUE-compatible" rebreather but I've always dove with a second stage HOG looped around my neck on CCR but it was mostly for me to use. That is how I was taught in my MOD1 and MOD2 classes. I have just found it routes cleaner than having a regulator on a d-ring. I do explain to new dive buddies that I "can" donate it using the procedure above but I have to go off the loop or I can always donate a regulator from my other bailout bottle which has a 5' hose.

Up until recently I did not have a BOV (another controversial subject in itself I guess). Having a fully charged and on second stage around my neck has always allowed me to bailout very quickly. It eliminates the step altogether of having to find and pull the 2nd stage off my bailout. I've tested it numerous times and had to use it in one very real scenario. It works.

I recently got a new rebreather with a BOV so now I've got back to having my second stage stowed on my bailouts. This is what I do but I'm sure it's "wrong" but it works for me. I'm open to better systems but I'm comfortable with this approach.

I think at least for me the big issue with the donation reg being stowed on the bottle is findint it quickly. Its very easy with sm bailout to unknowingly do something that makes the reg move from where you expect it to be. I tried it a few dives and wasnt a fan. Its really just what you?re comfortable with. With the long hose around the neck its very similar to if you were im oc sm or bm.


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[Whitrzac]

Problem 1: doing something because its always been done that way or because you're use to it.... Diving a RB is completely different from OC, stop trying to do things the way they're done on OC.



A long hose under the loop around your neck sounds like a whole mess of WTF. Its bailout, keep the hose tucked in along the tank where its untangled and easy to deploy.
If your not using a BOV, keep another reg on a necklace, leaving the other/long hose easy to deploy.

[rddvet]

Problem 1: doing something because its always been done that way or because you're use to it.... Diving a RB is completely different from OC, stop trying to do things the way they're done on OC.



A long hose under the loop around your neck sounds like a whole mess of WTF. Its bailout, keep the hose tucked in along the tank where its untangled and easy to deploy.
If your not using a BOV, keep another reg on a necklace, leaving the other/long hose easy to deploy.

Just different philosophies and comfort levels. A long hose under the loop is far from a mess. Give it a try. It takes a different donation process ever so slightly, but its easy to master. Especially since most of it is second nature.
Personally I have seen way too many people with tucked hoses that have zero clue where they may be from dive to dive. Even the ?best? diver is going to at some point hit a tank or reg and it not be where they expect it to be when they need it. Before my training I was used to seeing the bailout reg still on the tank. After being taught the pros and cons of each and trying them, I find regs on the tanks a poor choice at least for me.
As for ?problem 1?, many of us go from ccr to bm to sm regularly. In sm and bm my reg is always around my neck or clipped to the dring (but still from behind the neck). So when crap goes down, my brain will want to revert to what it knows best. And thats a long hose around my neck. So yes, I?m ?used to it? for good reason and theres a reason thats comforting.
When it comes to ccr theres alot of ?anything goes?. And different things feel safe to different people. The people i dive with hold the same philosophies as me when it comes to bailout management, so it makes for ease when diving with each other. That doesnt mean I wouldnt dive with someone that stows their regs on the bottles. It just means I need to be extra diligent in our predive communication and knowing what to do if things go sideways.


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[kieren]

Problem 1: doing something because its always been done that way or because you're use to it.... Diving a RB is completely different from OC, stop trying to do things the way they're done on OC.



A long hose under the loop around your neck sounds like a whole mess of WTF. Its bailout, keep the hose tucked in along the tank where its untangled and easy to deploy.
If your not using a BOV, keep another reg on a necklace, leaving the other/long hose easy to deploy.

This used to be my exact thought, which I agrued aggressively for several years, and then I had my longhose come unstowed from a sidemounted bailout cylinder while scootering, which made a very big mess (I'm not the only one, I know of A LOT of these stories). I then tried routing the longhose with the loop to it clean, and found donating actually EASIER then trying to deploy it from stowed on the tank. That was before I started down the GUE path myself.

I then transitioned to diving CCR primarily with backmounted bailout after it being properly explained that the GUE configuration is not "because that's how we do it on OC" as many (including me at one point) assume. When someone told you that, it was probably in relation to keeping the full OC system consistent, not just longhose donation (although donation is a major factor for WHY the OC configuration is the way it is). Having your bailout configured the same as backmount OC allows for failure resolution on the OC side of the unit to follow the exact same structure as on open circuit, streamlining the process and increasing the odds of resolving the issue promptly as a team. It's about consistency across a broad spectrum of diving disciplines and environments, a "holistic" approach, if you will. If you look at it this way, diving a rebreather is, in fact, not much different from diving OC.

[bent]

This used to be my exact thought, which I agrued aggressively for several years, and then I had my longhose come unstowed from a sidemounted bailout cylinder while scootering, which made a very big mess (I'm not the only one, I know of A LOT of these stories). I then tried routing the longhose with the loop to it clean, and found donating actually EASIER then trying to deploy it from stowed on the tank. That was before I started down the GUE path myself.

I then transitioned to diving CCR primarily with backmounted bailout after it being properly explained that the GUE configuration is not "because that's how we do it on OC" as many (including me at one point) assume. When someone told you that, it was probably in relation to keeping the full OC system consistent, not just longhose donation (although donation is a major factor for WHY the OC configuration is the way it is). Having your bailout configured the same as backmount OC allows for failure resolution on the OC side of the unit to follow the exact same structure as on open circuit, streamlining the process and increasing the odds of resolving the issue promptly as a team. It's about consistency across a broad spectrum of diving disciplines and environments, a "holistic" approach, if you will. If you look at it this way, diving a rebreather is, in fact, not much different from diving OC.

Why not just clip it off without looping though? I still find it odd that GUElers of all people seem to have gone from "it's important to be able to donate gas fast and easy" to close loop, push up, five more steps to get back to breathing. There is so much room for error here.
People used to say that SM sucks because (among other things) you can't just donate a working regulator out of your mouth at all times.
Not saying it's a #### setup, it's just seems odd to me, especially comming from the GUE/DIR crowd.

I'll be in French cave country next week... maybe I'll try to get a hold of GUE shirt so I can trick some Euro GUE-JJ divers into talking to me about it.

[rddvet]

Why not just clip it off without looping though? I still find it odd that GUElers of all people seem to have gone from "it's important to be able to donate gas fast and easy" to close loop, push up, five more steps to get back to breathing. There is so much room for error here.
People used to say that SM sucks because (among other things) you can't just donate a working regulator out of your mouth at all times.
Not saying it's a #### setup, it's just seems odd to me, especially comming from the GUE/DIR crowd.

I'll be in French cave country next week... maybe I'll try to get a hold of GUE shirt so I can trick some Euro GUE-JJ divers into talking to me about it.

Because its neither difficult to do or slow to share gas like that. I thought it sounded awful when I was foist told thats how we were going to do it, but its truly a nonissue. Add to that the fact that the idea is based on all members of the team being on ccr. In order to have an issue that leads to the need for immediate air sharing is both rare and there should have been some idea it was about to happen since it takes a cascade of failures to get to that point. I?m no gue instructor so dont take my word for it, but basically I was told that its the ?best its going to get? in terms of simplicity and speed of sharing gas.
I really tried a few times to keep my regs stowed to my bottles to compare, and honestly that method sucks. I can see meeting in the middle with the reg clipped off but not around the neck, but i?m very comfortable with how I was taught.


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[rddvet]

I forgot to mention that if I dive in a mixed team I carry a stage anyway thats for my oc buddy. I would still donate the long hose, but the stage is there in case we need to exit sharing air. I?d prefer to not be tied to them if I can avoid it. But I also do the same in oc if im diving with aomeone I dont dive with regularly


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[PfcAJ]

Why not just clip it off without looping though? I still find it odd that GUElers of all people seem to have gone from "it's important to be able to donate gas fast and easy" to close loop, push up, five more steps to get back to breathing. There is so much room for error here.
People used to say that SM sucks because (among other things) you can't just donate a working regulator out of your mouth at all times.
Not saying it's a #### setup, it's just seems odd to me, especially comming from the GUE/DIR crowd.

I'll be in French cave country next week... maybe I'll try to get a hold of GUE shirt so I can trick some Euro GUE-JJ divers into talking to me about it.

GUE RB80 guy here, not GUE CCR, but the donation procedure is the same.

So the bailout is on your back, and that's probably one of the main configuration drivers that precludes the stowing of the longhose in the manner you describe. Where are you going to put the hose if not down, around the can, up across the chest, and around the neck? Stuffing the longhose along the right backgas tank has all the same problems with a rebreather that it does with open circuit.

You are correct in that it's a departure from donate what you're breathing. Well, it has to be, since you can't really donate a loop. So no matter what, you're donating from something clipped off or stowed somewhere.

With rebreathers, there's many steps between "something is going sideways" and "I am completely out of gas and need a long hose". More steps than with OC. They're generally highly visible, and because of that, you can get the long hose ready. Exceptions noted, of course, for people outside your team experiencing an emergency.

There are "steps", but its actually quite fast. Unclipping the long hose is something that's truly second nature as its done at every stage switch and every deco gas switch. Over the course of hundreds of dives (required before moving to RB80, I can't speak to the CCR program), that's a seriously ingrained skill. Along the same line of thought, the transition to OC gives you that familiar and strong lung control over buoyancy which can provide benefit in silty areas.

I think its important to note that at least on the RB80 (JJ guys can speak for that unit), its REALLY flood resistant. Taking the loop out of your mouth even with the BOV open isn't really a big deal. I think for less flood resistant units the priorities might shift a bit.

[lord1234]

There are "steps", but its actually quite fast. Unclipping the long hose is something that's truly second nature as its done at every stage switch and every deco gas switch. Over the course of hundreds of dives (required before moving to RB80, I can't speak to the CCR program), that's a seriously ingrained skill. Along the same line of thought, the transition to OC gives you that familiar and strong lung control over buoyancy which can provide benefit in silty areas.

I think its important to note that at least on the RB80 (JJ guys can speak for that unit), its REALLY flood resistant. Taking the loop out of your mouth even with the BOV open isn't really a big deal. I think for less flood resistant units the priorities might shift a bit.

Snipped a piece of stuff there. Good info on the RB80 and glad to hear its the same process as the JJ.

That being said to get to CCR1, one would arguably have to take fundies, then tech 1, then do 25 dives...then do CCR1. There is a catch in the standards that you need 50 OC doubles dives, but nothing about if those are pre/post fundies/tech1. Having read that, holy crap....one could get on a JJ CCR via GUE in 25 dives after fundies? Now let's be real, there is NO WAY IN HELL, one is passing a CCR1 class after *25* dives post fundies. I'll eat my hat if its actually possible.

The JJ is extremely flood tolerant, in fact during CCR1 class, you are forced to flood(or partially flood) the loop and then clear it. It's a pretty easy and quite successful procedure The JJ is extremely flood tolerant from "loop coming out of mouth" level floods.

[Draker]

there is NO WAY IN HELL, one is passing a CCR1 class after *25* dives post fundies. I'll eat my hat if its actually possible.

This feels a bit like a challenge. Might be just the motivation I need.


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