Any news from Ginnie today?

[tbone1004]

Don’t blame the mods. I was asked to have the mods take it down. The person who passed along the information got some negative commentary from a small few and rather than it turn into a this group vs that group argument, decided to take it down. The post obviously did it’s job of dispelling speculation by feeding the usual angry mod an appetizer. I will be honest. The grand majority of people appreciated the posting. A very small number messaged me their concerns (and not in the most polite way). It’s funny there’s still a good ole boys club mentality of it’s ok for our friends to hear every single detail from us but if someone else posts it it’s no ok. That seems to be a lot of what it boils down but they veil it in the cloak of concern for the family.

I've said it before and will say it again, the absolute worst thing in this community are the stickers from Amigos that say "Dive More, Post Less". It creates nonsense like this. "Dive More, Post More"... Unfortunately that same group of people are the ones that truly believe in the sticker as it stands today and it is what feeds these fires

[Diverlee]

Well at least most people got to read it before it was removed. There is always Scuba Board and FB. It was posted there too
Thank you for the information and your attempt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bent]

And now the details are gone. There was nothing in rddvet's post that was disrespectful to the deceased or recovery divers. I've never understood those who want to keep information from others and silence individuals. Who are you protecting? This sport, hobby, whatever you want to call it was in part built upon accident analysis. By keeping information from others you prevent others from learning and make the sport more dangerous in my opinion.

I think you and Tom, Richard and some others are spinning this. Who says the details are gone for good? None does. You guys don't know that.
Put yourself in position of the recovery divers. You basically just got out of the water after you had to get a body (likely of someone you knew) out of the cave. Now, you haven't even dried off and already you are being bugged by a pack of vultures that DEMAND details NOW. So they can talk about it on the internet. Really? If I was a one of the recovery divers, I'd be livid. For crying out loud, if there is no information in 3 month you guys can ##### and moan all you want and you would at least have somewhat of a point.
What do you guys need to info for NOW and why can't you wait another 2 weeks?
For instance, in the EN accident with the two JJ diver and the tow germans in Mx, there was lots of info released. Just not the day after.

If anyone wants to talk accident analysis, you can open up a thread about CCR HUDs or whatever and talk about what could have happened in a situation like that.

[bent]

That seems to be a lot of what it boils down but they veil it in the cloak of concern for the family.

That's quite the accusation, don't you think.
So you actually expect one of the divers to get out of the water and get on the internet straight away to write a report so you and other can chitchat about it on facebook etc? Let's not kid ourselfs here, accident analysis is not done on an internet forum or facebook.
Besides, from most accidents there is not much to learn. In most cases I'm aware of there was either a rule broken or someone made a mistake that we all know was a possibility. Odds are that there is no great big secret people want to hide.
Usually I very much agree with what you post, Rich. But here I think you're way off.

Edit: I wanna know what happened too. I can wait though.

[tbone1004]

That's quite the accusation, don't you think.
So you actually expect one of the divers to get out of the water and get on the internet straight away to write a report so you and other can chitchat about it on facebook etc? Let's not kid ourselfs here, accident analysis is not done on an internet forum or facebook.
Besides, from most accidents there is not much to learn. In most cases I'm aware of there was either a rule broken or someone made a mistake that we all know was a possibility. Odds are that there is no great big secret people want to hide.
Usually I very much agree with what you post, Rich. But here I think you're way off.

It is completely fair to expect what was posted within 24 hours of a recovery, yes. What it does is keep the discussions somewhat on track instead of veering way off into wild speculation. The discussions on facebook and scubaboard now are about HUD's, which wouldn't be happening if that post wasn't made. They are healthy discussions for the most part and are getting a lot of people to step back and look at what they do and some may change their stance. That is a good thing.

If accident analysis is not done on an internet forum or facebook for cave diving accidents, where is it done? The IUCRR certainly isn't doing it any more *specifically trying to pretend some incidents never happened*, the agencies aren't doing it any more, the manufacturers have never done it, so where is it done if not by the community?
If a rule was broken, then we need to be talking about why it was broken. Is the rule antiquated? Was it taught properly? Should it be emphasized more? Should the "why" behind the "what" or "how" be redefined so others aren't apt to break it?

On the details being gone for good, there are still several IUCRR recoveries that do not have reports out, from YEARS ago. Those details never materialized. History says if they are trying to sweep it away, they will. We are moaning now because there are a ton of incidents that never have reports filed by the IUCRR or have reports that aren't filed properly because it doesn't fit the narrative. If they're muzzling him now, I fear that this is one that will end up on that same path.

[barney00]

I've said it before and will say it again, the absolute worst thing in this community are the stickers from Amigos that say "Dive More, Post Less"

This? You think this is the "ABSOLUTE WORST THING" in the cave diving community?!?!

WOW.

Just....wow.

[rddvet]

That's quite the accusation, don't you think.
So you actually expect one of the divers to get out of the water and get on the internet straight away to write a report so you and other can chitchat about it on facebook etc? Let's not kid ourselfs here, accident analysis is not done on an internet forum or facebook.
Besides, from most accidents there is not much to learn. In most cases I'm aware of there was either a rule broken or someone made a mistake that we all know was a possibility. Odds are that there is no great big secret people want to hide.
Usually I very much agree with what you post, Rich. But here I think you're way off.

Edit: I wanna know what happened too. I can wait though.

I'll say it a little differently. For the past 7 years that I've been in cave country I have found out every gritty detail of every major incident in less than 24 hours. The reason I find out that info is that there's always somebody that tells that info to their "friends". But they don't realize their friends can't keep it quiet and it spreads like wildfire and text chains start along with lots of speculation. In every single case I have direct knowledge of who the people that blabbed the initial facts first are. I can tell you that the people who vocally and semi-rudely tried to bend my arm to take this post down because of "concern over the family and friends" are the exact same people I know for a fact run their mouths to their "inner circle." Don't mistake that I'm saying these are recovery divers discussing it with other recovery divers. I am saying these are recovery divers/support team members who as soon as they have access to their phones fill their friends in with all the gory details. Not to move accident analysis forward, but because they want their buddies to know. People may not like to hear it, but its cold hard fact. If you're not privy to these conversations and details you may not understand it. I never go searching for details, but they always seem to fall into my lap. The ole boys club mentality is still alive and well. If you're in the inner circle you get the deets.
So my issue is why are the people who run their mouth to their friends suddenly upset that I posted the details I was asked to post? What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander in their eyes I guess.
I

[UCFKnightDiver]

I think you and Tom, Richard and some others are spinning this. Who says the details are gone for good? None does. You guys don't know that.
Put yourself in position of the recovery divers. You basically just got out of the water after you had to get a body (likely of someone you knew) out of the cave. Now, you haven't even dried off and already you are being bugged by a pack of vultures that DEMAND details NOW. So they can talk about it on the internet. Really? If I was a one of the recovery divers, I'd be livid. For crying out loud, if there is no information in 3 month you guys can ##### and moan all you want and you would at least have somewhat of a point.
What do you guys need to info for NOW and why can't you wait another 2 weeks?
For instance, in the EN accident with the two JJ diver and the tow germans in Mx, there was lots of info released. Just not the day after.

If anyone wants to talk accident analysis, you can open up a thread about CCR HUDs or whatever and talk about what could have happened in a situation like that.

Except information was posted and now it has been taken down. No one was hounded, in fact rddvet specifically said one of the recovery divers asked him to post information. Who's spinning? I don't think it's me. As others have said, many times details never come out. If not now, when is appropriate? In your mind, why are the details that were posted not appropriate now but will be in a few weeks?

[bent]

It is completely fair to expect what was posted within 24 hours of a recovery, yes.

I don't know where you're getting this from. You sound like you think the recovery divers owe you.

I'm happy if I can get details on accidents directly from the recovery divers. I also very much appreciate when I can read a report and/or analysis by a recovery diver, like the one from the calimba accident.

You're not entitled to get a report and neither am I. And you are certainly not entitled to get a report within 24 hours after.

If they're muzzling him now, I fear that this is one that will end up on that same path.

Maybe they wanna be left alone for a few days? I wouldn't wanna report to you right after a body recovery.

[tbone1004]

I don't know where you're getting this from. You sound like you think the recovery divers owe you.

I'm happy if I can get details on accidents directly from the recovery divers. I also very much appreciate when I can read a report and/or analysis by a recovery diver, like the one from the calimba accident.

You're not entitled to get a report and neither am I. And you are certainly not entitled to get a report within 24 hours after.


Maybe they wanna be left alone for a few days? I wouldn't wanna report to you right after a body recovery.

if they are reporting to their friends and starting the rumor mill, then the IUCRR should have an official channel that they post to when something like this happens. I knew what happened around the time that rddvet did, so did many others, but if they want to stop the rumor and speculation, then the IUCRR should have someone post on their website or facebook page or whatever once. That post would look very similar to what was posted originally and end with "further details to come". This stops any pressure on the recovery divers directly and is an official post from the group that pulled the diver out. Really easy for the organization to do and would stop this kind of nonsense. I've done body recoveries, it's not fun, it's really not fun when you know the guy, but at the same time, the divers have to file everything that happened, so someone like a media coordinator would write a quick blurb. I'm not asking the divers to post it, it's not their job, I'm asking the IUCRR to do it because it is theirs.