IUCRR and Eagle's Nest Incident

[JMB2262]

I disagree. I also teach PSD teams, they are not safe to do a cave recovery, even large teams with resources are not trained or prepared for recovery efforts in caves. Most cave accidents are going to occur in places with small rural teams that may be rescue trained at best. the IUCRR is a great thing and fills a need.

I disagree with this statement. I run a PSD team and I am an instructor for a couple of PSD agencies. On my team of 16 divers, 9 are full cave trained (they have other relevant training that goes with this too). If teams are properly trained and are proficient with their skills, then they can do cave recoveries. Constant training is the key. We are a full time PSD FEMA level 1/4 team. I know that you are basing this opinion on Florida Team, but not all PSD teams are alike. Some are quite large with many resources.
Now with that said, some of what Mr. Hill has stated is a fact when setting up a dive to do a recovery in Eagles Nest (time of day, stand by divers, support staff, etc.). I would not allow certain members of my team to make that dive, but there are others who are qualified to do it as a diver, support diver, or shore support. I do not know that much about IUCRR, but I did e-mail their training director in the past because I wanted my cave divers to get more training (They never responded). Based on the many statements of what Mr. Hill has written, I would agree they can be a useful resource.

Matt

[mdax]

I read the posts above and can't help but think that folks are upset because they feel they should be the ones on TV doing the explaining.

Seems to me there is a need for an offshore forum far from the reaches of our perverse sense of justice and law so we can all talk freely without fear of lawsuits or legal bullying.
It makes me sad that this location is likely in Russia, China or Eastern Europe as lawyers have so screwed our system.

[RN]

I don't believe HIPAA applies here, for those of you quoting HIPAA should go to HHS.gov and research hipaa.

HIPAA applies to health care professionals who acquire health information about patients in the course of their duty as a health care professional. So when I work at the hospital I'm not allowed to tell anyone that Mr. Smith had a colectomy unless the person I am speaking with is also involved in the care of Mr. Smith. However, even though I'm a health care professional, I can still tell my a friend that my neighbor is sick in the hospital with bronchitis if I obtained that information from my neighbor's husband and not while working in the hospital.

That being said, recovery divers are not providing health care to the bodies they recover and they are not passing about information they obtain while providing health care for them, so no, HIPAA does not apply.

[PfcAJ]

Protected healthcare info like what size tanks they had and the max depth on their computers...

Gotta admit, that sounds like a bit of a baloney excuse....just a lil...

[jcr]

It seems to me that the IUCRR is struggling for relevance since many of these recoveries have been effectively handled by individual cave divers rather than the IUCRR. While the IUCRR is comprised of cave divers, organizationally it has more in common with law enforcement. This is not surprising since the IUCRR was founded and continues to be run by former law enforcement officers. Unlike the broader cave diving community, the IUCRR has shown no interest in accident analysis and forbids its divers from discussing recoveries openly. This is a product of their law enforcement mentality. Needless to say, the HIPAA and workman's comp arguments fall flat. If the IUCRR wants to be the first ones called in a rescue or recovery situation, then they need to convince those doing the calling (often cave divers) that they're a valuable resource that won't take over and exclude non-IUCRR divers and that they're willing to open up and share factual information about these incidents. Accident analysis is much more than morbid curiosity, it's an ongoing conversation about how to stay alive.

[curtschu]

Ken, this thread has brought out the biggest issue most in the group feel the failing point of the IUCRR. You are not posting the reports once LEO has closed the case. It was done in the past. What is stopping you? Most of these event happen in Florida, we have sunshine laws must public information cannot be withheld. Once the case is closed release the report!

[AB8CD]

Wow! Russel, thanks for that story. My 70 year-old mother was hospitalized after a car accident and she was crushed that no one from the church came to visit her. I'll have to tell her that information.

Yes, our culture is demanding privacy (and many other things) without recognizing the larger impacts of those decisions. I have witnessed this in the church (I am a Presbyterian pastor) and in law enforcement (I was a certified police officer and trained rescue diver). The irony of these posts as I see it... Is that almost everyone is seeking a positive outcome. Decisions made by divers in the immediacy of a situation involved sacrifice and gave some closure to family. Those involved have my admiration. Comments made from an organizational perspective expressed concern for the recovery divers. For that they have my admiration as well.

The observations that individuals are seeking to further their own interests is deceiving because... if our interests are motivated by our desire to better serve others... then that is a good cause to further.

And my final (and biased) observation... Thank God for the rebels who continue to question the system. My personal faith model is centered around just such an individual.

Happy and Blessed New Year!


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[thatcampbellkid]

Does anyone know if the IUCRR has any decals or stickers with their contact information, something like DAN's? I've talked to a few others and thought it might be a good idea to grab or make a couple.

John

[cerich]

Matt, how many teams can boast what you just did? Less than a half dozen...worldwide?

I disagree with this statement. I run a PSD team and I am an instructor for a couple of PSD agencies. On my team of 16 divers, 9 are full cave trained (they have other relevant training that goes with this too). If teams are properly trained and are proficient with their skills, then they can do cave recoveries. Constant training is the key. We are a full time PSD FEMA level 1/4 team. I know that you are basing this opinion on Florida Team, but not all PSD teams are alike. Some are quite large with many resources.
Now with that said, some of what Mr. Hill has stated is a fact when setting up a dive to do a recovery in Eagles Nest (time of day, stand by divers, support staff, etc.). I would not allow certain members of my team to make that dive, but there are others who are qualified to do it as a diver, support diver, or shore support. I do not know that much about IUCRR, but I did e-mail their training director in the past because I wanted my cave divers to get more training (They never responded). Based on the many statements of what Mr. Hill has written, I would agree they can be a useful resource.

Matt

[Ken Hill]

Ken, this thread has brought out the biggest issue most in the group feel the failing point of the IUCRR. You are not posting the reports once LEO has closed the case. It was done in the past. What is stopping you? Most of these event happen in Florida, we have sunshine laws must public information cannot be withheld. Once the case is closed release the report!

IN THE PAST WE HAD NO CONFIDENTIALITY LAWS OR REGS TO WORRY ABOUT, NOW WE DO!

I understand peoples frustrations that the world they came to know has written laws and regulations that has forced changes on people and institutions they dealt with. Frustration with these laws is getting worse every day! Such laws/rules says a little girl in Oregon couldn't sell lemonade to pay for her braces but was allowed to BEG for money in the same location. This defies common sense. BUT it is the law and if you break it you can be charged or sued.

The IUCRR has as its mission support of all Public Safety Agencies, and work within their Incident Command System (1), in the rescue and/or recovery of victims in an underwater-overhead environment. That's it. Law Enforcements seeks the assistance of trained individuals to complete their mission when they are not prepared to do so. It is a hand and glove arrangement.

HIPPA, yes it does apply, perhaps not across the board but the IUCRR has learned from interviews, on site investigation that some issues that lead to a fatality were not diving related issue but stemmed from past or present health issues. There are things family members have told us in confidence and DON"T want the public at large or other members of their circle to know. Therefore, a policy of "no comment" is the only one that governs the IUCRR. My dentist can't call my name in the waiting room so I am issued a beeper. If you area HIPPA expert, write us some guide lines, we'll be glad to have them reviewed. Referring us to a web site that has many conflicting bureaucratic regulations AND exceptions and exemptions puts us in a position where we probably need you help.

The Earnhardt decision. Volunteers from Daytona and NASCAR did the investigation of the crash as the elements of the car, its safety measures and track design were beyond mainstream law enforcement capabilities. The UF "Alligator" sued for information to make sure that the investigation was done correctly by professionals and volunteers that were not members of law enforcement. Does this sound familiar? UF lost, but the IUCRR hasn't got the deep pockets of NASCAR and DAYTONA should we misspeak . We do have a volunteer legal officer who provides pro bono legal services that advises us to be cautious.

Law enforcement may choose to close a case or may elect to keep it open. The IUCRR is not notified by law enforcement when or what decision is made. In addition to possible criminal investigation there is civil litigation that is affected by a statute of limitation that allows parties with standing to sue. That may be two or more years after the event depending on venue. In a recent divers death the CDS is being sued coasting them some $20,000 in ADDITION TO FREE LEGAL SERVICES given them by Tex Chalkley. I have no desire to put the IUCRR and any of its volunteers in a situation just to satisfy some ghoulish internet curiosity. The important information is already out there for all trained cave divers to understand. I have said in the past if you want something from someone over the internet post your name and verifiable diving credentials so when a reply is made we know whose asking and can be sure the poster is not a shill for reporter or an investigator for a personal injury law firm.

The time spent by some vocal internet critics could and should be used to BUY A STAMP and file a FOIA or Sunshine law request as you suggested earlier. Any individual doing that and learning something from a Law Enforcement agency that we have pledged our confidentiality to can post whatever they like and face any legal consequences for doing so. Lastly, why would the IUCRR ask for the report it wrote!.

As said before. Nothing recent has had the potential to affect the safety of the cave diving community. If we come across something we reserve the right to get the word out.

If you are a FOIA expert or a HIPPA expert and would like to take on some responsibility to help us, I can use your help. With 50 states and activist federal courts not much is settled law and a watchdog would be of help!.





(1) Incident Command System
An ICS is based upon a changeable, scalable response organization providing a common hierarchy within which people can work together effectively. These people may be drawn from multiple agencies that do not routinely work together, and ICS is designed to give standard response and operation procedures to reduce the problems and potential for miscommunication on such incidents. ICS has been summarized as a "first-on-scene" structure, where the first responder of a scene has charge of the scene until the incident has been declared resolved, a more qualified responder arrives on scene and receives command, or the Incident Commander appoints another individual Incident Commander.