IUCRR and Eagle's Nest Incident

[JE]

http://www.iucrr.org/

It is an open link, & use discreetly please !

[Ken Hill]

Ken
Many years ago ( before you became an instructor ) the CDS used to offer a recovery course and at the time I took it, the course was taught by Mark Leonard and the late Henry Nicholoson. We were provided a handbook, for lack of a better term, as to how to conduct a recovery. The paperwork provided to us included a checklist of questions that law enforcement folks would be asking at some point, probably to determine if the accident really was an accident or if there might have be foul play. In my opinion, this "fill in the blank" checklist was extremely complete. Since the 91 time frame, I've used this checklist a couple of times, unfortunately, and the law enforcement personnel were always extremely grateful to be provided with this document. The results of our findings and an accident report were provided to many different agencies such as the CDS and the ICURR and they always seem to get posted. An example of this is the fatality at Little River in the 05 time frame.

Back to the checklist for a minute. I've had this guidebook in my truck for 22 years now. Would you tell me that if I should be unfortunate enough to be at a dive site where a "possible" fatality had just occurred, should I just pick up the phone and call 911 or somebody or implement the training that I have. I vote for "option B"
One last item, the course once completed, says that the recovery diver on scene has complete control over who does what and so on. He will remain in charge until law enforcement or somebody in a higher official capacity than the recovery diver shows up. One last item. In my 25 years as a cave instructor, I've never seen ANYTHING that tells me that the ICURR takes precedence over our own recovery course. Any thoughts here?

Regards,
Brent

Hi Brent,
I've got two responses back to back yours and along with PfcAJ, I'd like to combine them. There is no reason you can't do both, act to address the emergency AND call for support. The difference today is that you might end up in court if you release information that violates privacy laws and/or the police don't want the information gathered released.

I have the same checklist sealed in plastic in the back of my logbook. Pretty much the same can be downloaded from the IUCRR website, something the next generation finds more convenient. The IUCRR added the (RRSOM) Rescue Recovery Surface Operations Manager who deals with the press and the police and allows the divers to do what they need to do without interference. The RRSOM is the record keeper as well, dive supervisor and safety officer. This is to support and make the recovery dive safer and the divers obstacles from the site easier. The RRSOM has contact with the Medical Officer and the legal officer if need be.

In one recent recovery, we stopped the dive despite law enforcement asking us to go through the night and resumed the following morning giving the people doing the recovery some SIT time and an opportunity to pump correct gas fill scrubbers etc. And yes the police have turned away divers that were there for whatever personal reason. The case of one cave diver, showing up intoxicated and in bib overalls and doubles is legend. The case of one diver inspired to earn reward money proved fatal.

PfcAJ asked if we were ever threatened with hindering an investigation, not yet or none that I'm aware of but we try to stay within the law and guidelines set for us by law enforcement. It's their report to use as they see fit. Law enforcement has exemptions from privacy laws and can easily obtain a court order to get what it needs, we can't and that's the law. In the Dale Earnhardt case the University of Florida's school newspaper, The Alligator has argued the images should be made public to show whether investigators did an adequate job of determining what killed Earnhardt. The court ruled the Earnhardt's were entitled to privacy. So since we are in Florida and the courts have ruled we are really in no position to tell anyone what to do.

Hope this helps.

[Superlyte27]

Nevermind.

[curtschu]

Once the file is in the police hands simply file a foa and get the report. If the investigation is not on going they have no choice just ask George Zimmerman and Casey Anthony. The news got everything they want. Gotta love government in the Sunshine.

[Tegg]

Hi Brent,
I've got two responses back to back yours and along with PfcAJ, I'd like to combine them. There is no reason you can't do both, act to address the emergency AND call for support. The difference today is that you might end up in court if you release information that violates privacy laws and/or the police don't want the information gathered released.

I have the same checklist sealed in plastic in the back of my logbook. Pretty much the same can be downloaded from the IUCRR website, something the next generation finds more convenient. The IUCRR added the (RRSOM) Rescue Recovery Surface Operations Manager who deals with the press and the police and allows the divers to do what they need to do without interference. The RRSOM is the record keeper as well, dive supervisor and safety officer. This is to support and make the recovery dive safer and the divers obstacles from the site easier. The RRSOM has contact with the Medical Officer and the legal officer if need be.

In one recent recovery, we stopped the dive despite law enforcement asking us to go through the night and resumed the following morning giving the people doing the recovery some SIT time and an opportunity to pump correct gas fill scrubbers etc. And yes the police have turned away divers that were there for whatever personal reason. The case of one cave diver, showing up intoxicated and in bib overalls and doubles is legend. The case of one diver inspired to earn reward money proved fatal.

PfcAJ asked if we were ever threatened with hindering an investigation, not yet or none that I'm aware of but we try to stay within the law and guidelines set for us by law enforcement. It's their report to use as they see fit. Law enforcement has exemptions from privacy laws and can easily obtain a court order to get what it needs, we can't and that's the law. In the Dale Earnhardt case the University of Florida's school newspaper, The Alligator has argued the images should be made public to show whether investigators did an adequate job of determining what killed Earnhardt. The court ruled the Earnhardt's were entitled to privacy. So since we are in Florida and the courts have ruled we are really in no position to tell anyone what to do.

Hope this helps.

Would it be to difficult to post the information from the recoveries once the cases are closed?

I am pretty sure that in the recent IUCRR recoveries that have not been posted on the website, the cases are not sealed. Wouldn't it be worthwhile to assist the IUCRR in gaining a more positive view among the cavediving community and work to release the information from such recovery efforts? Not to mention, the ability for instructors to point to one source for "recent and factual" information on fatalities in caves.

Even if the IUCRR would simply do a FOI request for it's own data (which would be the way of obtaining the exact same information as anyone in the public could gain), something is better than nothing. What I am seeing from your recent statements is that the current process of not posting any information on recoveries will be the status quo going forward, meaning as time progresses, the information on your website will simply become more and more outdated, is that right?

[curtschu]

Would it be to difficult to post the information from the recoveries once the cases are closed?

I am pretty sure that in the recent IUCRR recoveries that have not been posted on the website, the cases are not sealed. Wouldn't it be worthwhile to assist the IUCRR in gaining a more positive view among the cavediving community and work to release the information from such recovery efforts? Not to mention, the ability for instructors to point to one source for "recent and factual" information on fatalities in caves.

Even if the IUCRR would simply do a FOI request for it's own data (which would be the way of obtaining the exact same information as anyone in the public could gain), something is better than nothing. What I am seeing from your recent statements is that the current process of not posting any information on recoveries will be the status quo going forward, meaning as time progresses, the information on your website will simply become more and more outdated, is that right?

Joe their fear if I read this right is HIPPA violation. so like I said do a FOA/Sunshine request to the police and you will have their report.

[Tegg]

Joe their fear if I read this right is HIPPA violation. so like I said do a FOA/Sunshine request to the police and you will have their report.

HIPPA is not involved if it is public information (ie, gained from a FOIA request).

[cerich]

I disagree. I also teach PSD teams, they are not safe to do a cave recovery, even large teams with resources are not trained or prepared for recovery efforts in caves. Most cave accidents are going to occur in places with small rural teams that may be rescue trained at best. the IUCRR is a great thing and fills a need.

I personally really have a distaste for the secrecy aspect and fears of HIPA violations (I think they are erring on the side of caution, I feel they could strip out many identifying aspects and publish accident reports)

The IUCRR needs to do a PR campaign IMHO as they have been silent in the face of criticism because they are confident they are doing the right thing, they kinda are but that silence is making the problem worse.

So the IUCRR can't post reports, and the unless all the special steps are taken to make an operation an "official" IUCRR recovery (kinda rules out the rescue possibility if the entire committee has to be there to authorize a dive), then uh...what's the IUCRR really for these days? Why bother? Does the IUCRR issue the certifications? Why does the IUCRR exist?

This is what I never understood about this organization. If law enforcement can't do the job (and they apparently cant, otherwise they would), why not make it a condition that if the IUCRR does a recovery, they get to publish an anonymous, objective report about what was found like they used to back a few years ago? Quid pro quo. IUCRR gets the body for the police don't have to (because they can't), and the IUCRR gets to publish its findings. Simple.

The divers of the IUCRR are quite specialized (experienced cave divers, additional recovery training, experience at many different sites, etc), and it seems to me that it would be easy to leverage that specialization into a little bit of power to ensure these reports get out.

[darkdiver211]

I don't believe HIPAA applies here, for those of you quoting HIPAA should go to HHS.gov and research hipaa.

[JMB2262]

Eric, Matt, and Robert,
Thank you for what you did. Thank you for making the best decisions you could in the situation. Thank you for your openness, and best wishes to you as you no doubt relive this situation many times. I hope you find peace from the images in your memories. You did good.

Dear Eric,

As a person who runs a public safety diving team and has done so for years, I can say I have felt what you and you colleagues have felt. I have to commend you and your colleagues for the actions you took on Christmas Day and I know from personal experience, you were just trying your best for the survivors of this tragic event. Some of what you said struck a chord with me because of a recovery we did two days before Christmas in 2009. It was a very tough recovery that pushed the limits of my team because of the diving environment we were in. Although I was only a supervisor that day, I was nervous for my team members and the family members of the victim who wanted closure. Christmas Day was ever present on my mind, as I am sure it was for you and your partners. It is easy to stand back and judge, especially when someone of Mr. Hill’s experience weighs in on these matters; however, no one can question your motives for doing what you did. I can tell you from experience that what you and your colleagues did that day will always stick with you because of the time of year. But also know this: You made a difference to the surviving family members. I wasn’t there, so I do not know if mistakes were made reference any IUCRR protocols. If there were, don’t dwell on it and just use it as a lesson for the future. My Team and I will be in Florida doing some cave diving in January. I'll buy you a beer.

Sincerely,
Matt