IUCRR and Eagle's Nest Incident

[Ken Hill]

Mdax...
Whether it was fear mongering or not, in Florida it's fiction. You cannot be denied your insurance for helping in this situation.

We have family in town so excuse the delay but I can't let this remark sit. Technically you are right but its naive to think the system will kick in for you just because you say so. I've managed and known law enforcement officers battling workman's comp for years after being hurt in the line of duty. Even with eye witness accounts and support documentation their personal policies and WC will battle it out trying to get out of paying. Doctors and Hospitals will try to extract every dime they can from you and your insurance before they can. Some hospitals charge an excess to what Workman's Comp pays and they send a residual bill to you or your insurer. The fun start when your insurer says, "NO!"

In this particular instance the "call out" was made by someone associated with the victim and involved in the recovery. Understandably, and rightfully he did all that he could to get help. But instead of calling the IUCRR he called someone else, and so on and so on. From the beginning it was known that there was no exigency here, there was no rescue to be made only a recovery. This raises the question would Workman's comp see the team doing the recovery as first responders of friends of the victim?

Suppose something happened to Matt and Eric. Suppose they were hospitalized and couldn't look after their personal affairs. Who would be their advocate? Which curbside bystander (although well intentioned) would walk their families thru the bureaucracy? Who would go after any volunteer benefit they may be entitled to? The IUCRR is there to support its divers, that includes providing workman's comp proper documentation from proper law enforcement authority and other necessary records. Workman's comp would certainly have to respond to a registered Florida not for profit corporation, they would not have to do that for an individual without any legal standing to manage a non relatives affairs. So, who else would do that? Personlly, Matt's like a son to me and his dad Woody is my best friend. I understand. Eric's in the DoD family so he knows bureaucracy. So yes, even though I am personally involved for them , the IUCRR is professionally involved for all of you that will attempt to risk your health and safety to save a life.

Now hopefully for the last time! The IUCRR cannot publish reports like it use to do! We never provided speculation and now must abide by statutes and court decisions in the 50 different US states dealing with privacy, victims right etc.. Recent federal regs, most notably HIPPA can fine or imprison us if we mis-speak or say anything for that matter. We prepare objective reports for law enforcement and reserve the right to sound the alarm should something concerning all divers safety come to our attention. If you want an accident of incident report file a FOIA request with the appropriate state jurisdiction. One of the great things about the State of Florida's Government is it's Sunshine law. ANY government correspondence, report, etc IS public information and anyone asking for the information WILL receive it from the State Agency that holds a copy of the document. If you want a copy, make a request to the State. If it's not released it probably means law enforcement isn't through with it yet.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that the IUCRR is an organization that bases it's actions on experience and lessons learned from YEARS of rescues, recoveries, and interaction with grieving family members & Government agencies. We here to support the cave diving community and not here to satisfy what at times seems to me to be ghoulish curiosity or internet chatter. If causes on some recent events aren't obvious to you, you haven't been properly trained, should seek additional training or shouldn't be cave diving.

Happy new year and a safe one for all!

[Al]

Eric, it absolutely sucks that you had to do this kind of thing on Christmas day. Given the circumstances you describe, I think you made the right call. I have nothing but respect for the people of IUCRR and the things they do. Sometimes you just have to think on your feet and do what's right. I don't think you are one who takes questionable risks.

The dialogue on this forum has been civil and productive. I hope all involved find some time for their families before the holidays are over. Thank you all for what you do.

Al Wells

[Sludge]

Now hopefully for the last time! The IUCRR cannot publish reports like it use to do! We never provided speculation and now must abide by statutes and court decisions in the 50 different US states dealing with privacy, victims right etc..

Ken, thank you for finally giving us an explanation. I had not thought about this, nor was it ever brought to my attention.

One of the ministers at my church was telling me that when people used to check in at the hospital they were asked if they belonged to any local church; this info was used to compile a report, so that each morning my church received a phone call telling them which members were in the hospital that day. Because of the new "privacy laws" the church never receives such a list, so many members are in the hospital for several days and no ministers ever visit them.

It sucks that the IUCRR can no longer publish their reports, but at least now I understand why they quit.

[Ken Hill]

Ken, thank you for finally giving us an explanation. I had not thought about this, nor was it ever brought to my attention.

One of the ministers at my church was telling me that when people used to check in at the hospital they were asked if they belonged to any local church; this info was used to compile a report, so that each morning my church received a phone call telling them which members were in the hospital that day. Because of the new "privacy laws" the church never receives such a list, so many members are in the hospital for several days and no ministers ever visit them.

It sucks that the IUCRR can no longer publish their reports, but at least now I understand why they quit.

Thank you for the story, it illustrates it perfectly!

For the ghouls that may be listening here's a story that you can lock yourself in the bathroom with! It highlights bureaucracy. I pulled a dismembered body out of a river that was wearing only a "brown" sock. I made the remark that "he" was dead and was immediately chastised. I was told only the Medical Examiner could declare the body dead and the fact that it was wearing a "mans" sock could in no way determine gender. I was wrong and careful ever since!

[PfcAJ]

So the IUCRR can't post reports, and the unless all the special steps are taken to make an operation an "official" IUCRR recovery (kinda rules out the rescue possibility if the entire committee has to be there to authorize a dive), then uh...what's the IUCRR really for these days? Why bother? Does the IUCRR issue the certifications? Why does the IUCRR exist?

This is what I never understood about this organization. If law enforcement can't do the job (and they apparently cant, otherwise they would), why not make it a condition that if the IUCRR does a recovery, they get to publish an anonymous, objective report about what was found like they used to back a few years ago? Quid pro quo. IUCRR gets the body for the police don't have to (because they can't), and the IUCRR gets to publish its findings. Simple.

The divers of the IUCRR are quite specialized (experienced cave divers, additional recovery training, experience at many different sites, etc), and it seems to me that it would be easy to leverage that specialization into a little bit of power to ensure these reports get out.

[TraceMalin]

Wow! Russel, thanks for that story. My 70 year-old mother was hospitalized after a car accident and she was crushed that no one from the church came to visit her. I'll have to tell her that information.

[DogDiver]

Thanks Ken for the information. As a RN I do understand HIPPA and didn't think about recovery issues....bummer....I wonder if the divers had at least DAN insurance. Bet not...

[Ken Hill]

So the IUCRR can't post reports, and the unless all the special steps are taken to make an operation an "official" IUCRR recovery (kinda rules out the rescue possibility if the entire committee has to be there to authorize a dive), then uh...what's the IUCRR really for these days? Why bother? Does the IUCRR issue the certifications? Why does the IUCRR exist?

This is what I never understood about this organization. If law enforcement can't do the job (and they apparently cant, otherwise they would), why not make it a condition that if the IUCRR does a recovery, they get to publish an anonymous, objective report about what was found like they used to back a few years ago? Quid pro quo. IUCRR gets the body for the police don't have to (because they can't), and the IUCRR gets to publish its findings. Simple.

The divers of the IUCRR are quite specialized (experienced cave divers, additional recovery training, experience at many different sites, etc), and it seems to me that it would be easy to leverage that specialization into a little bit of power to ensure these reports get out.

A fair question which deserves an answer.

First of all nothing rules out any rescue attempt - ever! The limitations for rescue are common sense ones. i.e You wouldn't go after a man going over Niagara Falls in a barrel but efforts way upstream may be a different story. All rescue manuals say "Call for help first ... if possible!"

IUCRR reports are prepared for law enforcement who are at the scene to investigate a homicide. Since most agencies cannot dive overhead or to the depths of the incident they trust the IUCRR to be their eyes and ears. The investigator will then have to look at the IUCRR report, compare it to the cause of death and what was learned during the interview/investigatory process and then determine if the Homicide fits into any statute that could be a crime. Murder, Manslaughter etc. They look to see if there is wrongful death. They examine the victims relationship to all others involved. This takes time and there is no statute of limitations on Homicide, I've found many jurisdictions are reluctant to close the case until some rules it accidental or suicide.

The IUCRR, its trained volunteers and any other person coming into contact with the scene must be relied on to prepare an objective report. We speak for the dead! In the past, friends doing a recovery were not objective. Some "buddy" accounts of events did not square with the physical evidence found by divers. Cave divers did silly things like analyzing the gas they sold the deceased rather than having some impartial person do that. When tanks are down below the IP of the regulator evidence must be cared for. There re still several cases many years old that are not closed.

There is a criminal statute that does not let you or me from hinder or obstruct a criminal investigation. Its quite possible that giving the who, what, where, when why out on the internet could wind up getting someone charged with hindering. Now you as a member of the public can speculate, as in this instance, training, gas management/mixture and depth are all contributory. But what straw exactly broke the camels back? No one will ever know!

The IUCRR issues no training cards and it is not a training agency. By agreement the CDS issues the completion of training card and the sole reason the CDS is the only agency to do that is so law enforcement can expect one standard to measure their case against ... rather than many standards if different agencies all have their say. We work within the incident command system mandated by the government. The IUCRR/CDS and NACD instructors do not get paid and travel at their own expense to train others. Once trained it is incumbent that the trainee contact their Regional Coordinator with a resume and offer to become a part of the call out list. This is like herding cats! But we do get the job done and someone always seems to know ho to get in touch with the person we need with the skills to do it safely

In the past year one trained diver has been warned against public statements using IUCRR obtained information and using the IUCRR name. This happened also two years ago. We've had several card collectors that will never see a recovery mission and one or two of them bellyache about us all the time. As stated earlier there are new privacy laws in each and every state as well as federal that make it a delicate decision as to what to say. I nor any of my people have any desire to do a good deed and a public service and find ourselves summoned to court for a criminal or civil violation of the law that we didn't know exists because it was just passed or ruled on yesterday.

Without the IUCRR law enforcement would not have anyone they could rely on that was trained and vetted to perform the service we perform. Some years back a recovery was completed and the report filed but deemed useless by the Sheriff because the volunteer, a local who has since moved far away, had several felony convictions and in no way could offer testimony in a very "iffy" case. So yes we are careful with the trust the cave diving community has given us. We do this willingly, without pay or reimbursement and without fanfare or personal publicity.

Is this a fair answer to you question?

[Brent]

Ken
Many years ago ( before you became an instructor ) the CDS used to offer a recovery course and at the time I took it, the course was taught by Mark Leonard and the late Henry Nicholoson. We were provided a handbook, for lack of a better term, as to how to conduct a recovery. The paperwork provided to us included a checklist of questions that law enforcement folks would be asking at some point, probably to determine if the accident really was an accident or if there might have be foul play. In my opinion, this "fill in the blank" checklist was extremely complete. Since the 91 time frame, I've used this checklist a couple of times, unfortunately, and the law enforcement personnel were always extremely grateful to be provided with this document. The results of our findings and an accident report were provided to many different agencies such as the CDS and the ICURR and they always seem to get posted. An example of this is the fatality at Little River in the 05 time frame.
Back to the checklist for a minute. I've had this guidebook in my truck for 22 years now. Would you tell me that if I should be unfortunate enough to be at a dive site where a "possible" fatality had just occurred, should I just pick up the phone and call 911 or somebody or implement the training that I have. I vote for "option B"
One last item, the course once completed, says that the recovery diver on scene has complete control over who does what and so on. He will remain in charge until law enforcement or somebody in a higher official capacity than the recovery diver shows up. One last item. In my 25 years as a cave instructor, I've never seen ANYTHING that tells me that the ICURR takes precedence over our own recovery course. Any thoughts here?

Regards,
Brent

[PfcAJ]

Thanks Ken, I think I'm starting to see the point, but its a little fuzzy.

"There is a criminal statute that does not let you or me from hinder or obstruct a criminal investigation. Its quite possible that giving the who, what, where, when why out on the internet could wind up getting someone charged with hindering. Now you as a member of the public can speculate, as in this instance, training, gas management/mixture and depth are all contributory. But what straw exactly broke the camels back? No one will ever know!"

If the report prepared is good enough for an investigation and to potentially use as evidence to put someone in prison, why is it not good enough for the general public to see? Why doesn't the IUCRR operate with an understanding that after x months, the report goes up. If the LE agency doesn't like it, tough, don't use the IUCRR. Why doesn't the IUCRR make a FOI request on behalf of the cave diving public so these reports are available for all to see?

Has a case of hinderance ever been brought against the IUCRR or a member of the IUCRR? Or is this all hypotheticals? Would a judge even hear a case over an objective, no names listed report being put up so people could learn?

Seems like a thin argument, from my perspective. But I'm willing to have that perspective changed, and I hope it is.