IUCRR and Eagle's Nest Incident

[Superlyte27]

The other thing I'd like to say is this....
If the process of using the IUCRR for the purpose of "recovery" is not sufficient for the purpose of rescue, then something might need to change (and I'm not talking about incidences where the car has been sitting in the parking lot for 26 hours, and there's no hope the guy is still alive). Again, I don't know much about the process, but here's what I'm envisioning. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

A diver gets in trouble in a cave. His buddies/family/park staff realize that he's been underwater for 4 hours instead of his planned 2 hours. Family calls friends. Friends call park. Park calls police. Police call IUCRR, IUCRR comes up with a few divers, and backup divers, they all meet at the dock, come up with a game plan, assemble gear, blah blah blah, meanwhile, 2 more hours have passed. The diver died 13 minutes ago.

Dear God people.

If I'm ever at the site, and it's suspected that someone is in trouble in the cave, come get me. I'll do whatever I can to get there in enough time to save him if at all possible. Hell, isn't this what Ed has been doing all along? Imagine waiting for permission from IUCRR in the cases where he's pulled people out alive.

Again, correct me if I'm off base here. But let it be known, if I'm around and your friend or loved one is in trouble, I'm going to look for them, NOW... not in 2 hours after someone has given me "permission".

[curtschu]

The other thing I'd like to say is this....
If the process of using the IUCRR for the purpose of "recovery" is not sufficient for the purpose of rescue, then something might need to change (and I'm not talking about incidences where the car has been sitting in the parking lot for 26 hours, and there's no hope the guy is still alive). Again, I don't know much about the process, but here's what I'm envisioning. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

A diver gets in trouble in a cave. His buddies/family/park staff realize that he's been underwater for 4 hours instead of his planned 2 hours. Family calls friends. Friends call park. Park calls police. Police call IUCRR, IUCRR comes up with a few divers, and backup divers, they all meet at the dock, come up with a game plan, assemble gear, blah blah blah, meanwhile, 2 more hours have passed. The diver died 13 minutes ago.

Dear God people.

If I'm ever at the site, and it's suspected that someone is in trouble in the cave, come get me. I'll do whatever I can to get there in enough time to save him if at all possible. Hell, isn't this what Ed has been doing all along? Imagine waiting for permission from IUCRR in the cases where he's pulled people out alive.

Again, correct me if I'm off base here. But let it be known, if I'm around and your friend or loved one is in trouble, I'm going to look for them, NOW... not in 2 hours after someone has given me "permission".

I could not agree more, if there is ever a situation where someone says "my son, husband, daughter, wife is overdue" go go as fast as you can see if they can be saved, what if Woody had waited two OW divers would be dead today. Rescues are so rare we should never squander the opportunity to make one.

[TeddyB]

Eric, Matt, and Robert,
Thank you for what you did. Thank you for making the best decisions you could in the situation. Thank you for your openness, and best wishes to you as you no doubt relive this situation many times. I hope you find peace from the images in your memories. You did good.

I'd be proud and pleased to have any of you in my corner any day.

Shirley

And this from a gold star mom... Shirley , you are a class act thank you . And we will never forget the sacrifice Cameron and by extension Shirley made in the service of others. Semper Fi Cameron , thank you for you sacrifice and service, your steadfast resolution was surely a trait passed from your mom.

[cavediver27]

I thought the IUCRR existed to assist local law enforcement organizations as a subordinate group of volunteers. Members of the organization are not supposed to speculate on facts, just report them to law enforcement. The information gathered belongs to the law enforcement agency. Any information that becomes available to the public should be free of speculation so that people can draw their own conclusions. As such, the primary concern of the organization is getting facts to law enforcement. Any educational benefit the cave diving community might gain from facts released to the public (such as information provided on the IUCRR website) is secondary.

Really? You need to read the IUCRR mission statement where they specifically mention
"Public safety" and "Public education". What have they done in the last few years to enhance "Safety" or "Education" in the overhead underwater cave environment? NOTHING!

[TraceMalin]

When I watch a public safety team gear up for a submerged car rescue, I think from a lifeguard's perspective that all you need is a center punch and the ability to surface dive while holding your breath. Two men were praised as heroes on national TV some years ago for doing exactly that and rescuing an elderly couple from a vehicle that had driven into a canal in Florida. No doubt that fast action such as the rescues Edd Sorenson made saved lives. The thing is that no one really knows when a rescue goes into recovery. John Orlowski's rescue (72 hours later?) in South America proves that you should never write anyone off.

Often, when a rescue goes into recovery mode, law enforcement and public safety dive teams get involved. Things move slowly at this point because the assumption is that the victim(s) is/are dead. Some law enforcement agencies treat the area as a crime scene. Public safety teams called to respond have standard operating procedures to follow that first address the safety of the divers, then address the needs of law enforcement to properly document a recovery effort, and finally try to minimize added stress to family members. In most recoveries divers need only deal with support elements of their own teams, other emergency workers and local law enforcement.

From working with public safety diving teams I have come to understand things from their point of view. Just as I understand the need and desire of would-be rescuers to get involved. That desire to get involved is important and is one of the things that makes this country great. Some people choose to volunteer for their local fire department, a dive team, or the IUCRR while others decide to act because they are there and the only ones holding the fort.

Because anyone in the cave diving community may be in that position of making a rescue or finding a rescue turning into a recovery, I think it is a good idea for any cave diver who thinks he or she would be willing to go into a cave for that purpose to seek training in rescue/recovery. Such training reinforces the safety within the community of divers not diving beyond the limits of their training.

[TraceMalin]

Really? You need to read the IUCRR mission statement where they specifically mention
"Public safety" and "Public education". What have they done in the last few years to enhance "Safety" or "Education" in the overhead underwater cave environment? NOTHING!

As far as the cave community goes has there been an accident that has left us scratching our heads lately that most likely wasn't attributed to "The 5 Rules" or Jeff Bozanic's research on why trained cave divers die? These would include solo, health issues, improper gas analysis or switches, too far too fast with advanced technologies, and poor skill or equipment maintenance? There might have been, but I don't recall.

As far as public education goes, IUCRR members, including myself, have lectured to law enforcement, PSD teams, and divers in their areas on the hazards of overhead emergencies and who to contact when the mission takes place in an overhead.

Listen, I understand your point of view. Divers who had the courage and the kindness went and did a tough job on what was supposed to be one of the most joyous days of the year. No one isn't grateful to them. The fact that cave divers may end up having to do something like this is why anyone willing to save or recover someone should probably get training in cave rescue/recovery in order to reduce their own risks. Training is available to the cave community for both education and safety.

[TraceMalin]

In addition, knowing what to do when approached by the family or the media is also important. The family doesn't need any more pain and the media doesn't need any more ammo to sensationalize a story. Could you imagine how saying the wrong thing to a reporter could truly jeopardize access to a cave? The first time I was at a recovery scene it was for two teens that drowned in a lake. I couldn't believe the lengths the media was going to to get information from those on scene and video of the bodies. A person ill-prepared for that could make things worse for himself, the family, or our community. Beyond diving skill, understanding the ramifications and responsibilities of being on site is important. The main reason for contributing my opinions in this thread is simply because I've always wondered why more cave divers don't get trained for rescue/recovery since often the job is undertaken by those in proximity or those who have advanced technologies to get the job done. Since we all advocate training for cave diving, wouldn't rescue/recovery training fall under the "Be trained" umbrella? Whether you feel an organization like the IUCRR is valuable or not, I'm sure we can agree that being trained for a rescue recovery dive only increases the likelihood of a far-reaching positive outcome.

[WJH]

In addition, knowing what to do when approached by the family or the media is also important. The family doesn't need any more pain and the media doesn't need any more ammo to sensationalize a story. Could you imagine how saying the wrong thing to a reporter could truly jeopardize access to a cave? The first time I was at a recovery scene it was for two teens that drowned in a lake. I couldn't believe the lengths the media was going to to get information from those on scene and video of the bodies. A person ill-prepared for that could make things worse for himself, the family, or our community. Beyond diving skill, understanding the ramifications and responsibilities of being on site is important. The main reason for contributing my opinions in this thread is simply because I've always wondered why more cave divers don't get trained for rescue/recovery since often the job is undertaken by those in proximity or those who have advanced technologies to get the job done. Since we all advocate training for cave diving, wouldn't rescue/recovery training fall under the "Be trained" umbrella? Whether you feel an organization like the IUCRR is valuable or not, I'm sure we can agree that being trained for a rescue recovery dive only increases the likelihood of a far-reaching positive outcome.

Easy to say when you live in Florida. We have asked for training in MO, and have had yearly NSS-CDS workshops for a number of years with a good number of prospects gathered here, but no trainers have been willing to come and do the job for us.

WJH

[TraceMalin]

Easy to say when you live in Florida. We have asked for training in MO, and have had yearly NSS-CDS workshops for a number of years with a good number of prospects gathered here, but no trainers have been willing to come and do the job for us.

WJH

I don't live in Florida. I'm a member of the IUCRR northeast. My northern office is the St. Lawrence and my southern office is High Springs. I did training with Lamar Hires, John Jones, and a couple other NSS-CDS instructors and IUCRR volunteers in Peacock during an NSS-CDS workshop in May 2007.

[phreaticus53]

You never know when a few minutes can be so important.
I was involved in a fatality at Orange Grove, circa 1981 or so.....
I was "cavern touring : my brother and two other friends (I was a Full cave Instr.)...stayed in the daylight zones, had two lights each, I ran a rel just to show proper equipment use.
We had done Peacock I, then headed over to OG. Immediately upon arriving there we were approached by a man who frantically said "we have a diver missing in the cave, so please DON'T GO IN THE WATER NOW!".. I asked how long he'd been missing, was told 15 -20 minutes. I said "I'm going in right now, might get lucky and find him before he runs out of air" Did a quick search of the lower cavern, cieling, then into the Challenge tunnel 100' or so...no silt, no bubbles on the cieling...came out and thought "Did this idiot go down through the breakdown towards lower OG?" Swam over there. went in maybe 20 ft. or so...saw nothing to suspect he was there? Getting low on gas, I came out. At that time, Ron Menke and Paul Meng drove up, I explained what I had done. They went further into the deep OG tunnel about 20-30 more feet and found the guy...deceased , of course. Had a difficult time extracting him...
Always wondered "What if we'd showed up 15-20 minutes earlier?"....
Time always matters...organizing people uses precious time....
Remember the "Woody Jasper Miracle" at Otter Springs back in the '80's? A few minutes, maybe seconds, were crucial there... and a lot of luck (and skill, on Woody's part).