Dumb Question

[bynummustang]

I think ANY jump that divers routinely do visually should be changed to a "T". That way nobody is tempted to do visual jumps. Sooner or later visual jumps are going to get you into trouble.

That would enable people to take short-cuts and think less about what they're doing. I don't agree with this. I've only been in this system once, and this dive was one of the two we did that day, and we completed the gap before we started the loop around. What I take from your statement (yes, an assumption) is that as divers are getting more experienced in the same dive/system that they are becoming more complacent. Wouldn't the diver who has done this particular dive multiple time just start getting his spool ready as he approaches the jump to save time?

[Jim Wyatt]

The first time I dove it in the 80's, there was no plastic toy...

The first time I dove it in about 1973 there was no plastic toy either....This was my poor attempt a making a joke.

[the dude]

if you change something to a "t" wouldn't you have the same issue as with double back to back arrows and an unverified exit? wouldn't it be up to the diver to drop a personal marker on the exit side of the "t", just as a diver should drop a marker denoting the way out when arrows conflict with the teams verified exit?

[Garyd]

Great discussion. I remember the first time I did that dive. It was just I and one other diver and neither of us had been there before. He was leading and did not put a jump line in when we entered, I guess feeling comfortable making the visual jump on the way out. On exit, having never been there before I didn't realize we were exiting out the loop side of the room and not just exploring deeper into the room. When we got to the EOL, I couldn't see the gold line around him and there was a moment of cold, hard dread until my mind made the connection to where we were and what was next. Man...I hate moments like that.

I imagine most of us do the occasional visual jump at spots we know well -for instance, the peanut restriction. That little episode reminded me of just how fast you can get confused when the unexpected happens. I can see where in the event of a major silt out, someone who had never been there (or in any other unfamilair spot obviously) before could get into trouble with confusing arrow configurations. Does it need to be changed? I don't know, but I was pleased to be reminded of the need for awareness and self reliance when cave diving. Rob, thanks for the reminder about placing nondirectional markers in spots like this. Clothespins are cheap!

[a64pilot]

if you change something to a "t" wouldn't you have the same issue as with double back to back arrows and an unverified exit? wouldn't it be up to the diver to drop a personal marker on the exit side of the "t", just as a diver should drop a marker denoting the way out when arrows conflict with the teams verified exit?

I like T's, until I get to where there are ten in the next 100 ft, even marked T's you should drop a clothespin, or that was my training anyway, and if you make all jumps T's, you'd be diving with a mess of clothespins

[FW]

I like T's, until I get to where there are ten in the next 100 ft, even marked T's you should drop a clothespin, or that was my training anyway, and if you make all jumps T's, you'd be diving with a mess of clothespins

Better than a mess of spools/reels.

[a64pilot]

Now Forrest, I doubt you'll ever have ten teams of divers on jumps at one time?

[oms121]

Why aren't more gaps/jumps set up so the gap between lines is only 1 - 2 ft so you can gap it with a spool/reel if you do as we are all taught, or if you are a visual gap kind of risk taker, you can reach out from the end of one line and "find" the other line if you return in poor viz.? We know people make visual jumps. By making more gaps less than 2 ft it would seem to be the best of both worlds. People who never do visual jumps could place gap spool/reel more quickly using smaller spools/reels. People who occasionally or usually do visual jumps would be at less risk as they could reach the other line just by reaching ( yes I realize that any visual jump is risky) and it would avoid the potential confusion that T's seem to create for some.

[Jim Wyatt]

Why aren't more gaps/jumps set up so the gap between lines is only 1 - 2 ft

One fatality I can think of was caused by a jump being so close...the diver who was in psychological extremis accidentally jumped onto the line that was two feet away & perished because of the accidental jump.

[whodunit68]

Why aren't more gaps/jumps set up so the gap between lines is only 1 - 2 ft...or if you are a visual gap kind of risk taker,

This scenario is dangerous to me. I have seen several in Mexico that are very close like this and every time comment to my buddy how dangerous this could be. In many places, it would be too easy to look at something in another direction and simply miss the jump. I was told by a guide/instructor of one particular one in Mexico..2 fatalities later....
Also, my feeling is, unfortunately, that the lines being so close will encourage more and more unnecessary risk in the form of visual jumps. At this time, I am against this idea.