Dumb Question

[tflaris]

Why does the Godzilla Circuit have mid way arrows at 700' when the line is only 800' long.

You would have to have prior knowledge of the system (trust-me dive, mentoring) or have marked the jumped on the way in and identified your personal marker as you reached the end of the Godzilla circuit to know that this was a verified exit.

Thoughts....

[Rich]

Why does the Godzilla Circuit have mid way arrows at 700' when the line is only 800' long.

'cause it's fun to mess with student's heads like that...

Seriously though, I don't know either, if it was a continuous line it would make sense but otherwise....

Safe diving,

Rich

[gmwells]

Back to back arrows denote equidistance routes of exit. Arrows do not have to point to a continous line to the surface. Wishbone circuit at Peacock has back to back arrows as I recall from many years ago, Ginnie has atleast two back to back arrows (probably many more) that come to mind that are not continuous lines and many other caves have places where the nearest point of exit changes but if you continue straight you might be making a visual jump unless you had placed a spool in the correct spot previously. You have to know the system or not trust the arrows otherwise.

I think in this case the issue may be that the loop is just such a short loop. In all other examples that come to mind, the line continues for a much longer distance in each direction from the back to back arrows. Perhaps someone was just being cute when they were originally placed. But, since it is technically correct I say leave it. Last time I was in there it had been a few years since I had swam that line and I had forgotten it was a circuit (probably because it is such a small one) until I saw the arrows. I guess they helped me.

Greg

[Jim Wyatt]

I do not recall there being any back-to-back arrows on that line. I do recall double arrows for jumps....

[Benthic]

I dove it this past weekend. I'm fairly certain I saw back-to-back arrows in the center of the Godzilla Room. It's in the center of the room, down on the floor. From that point it would be roughly the same distance in either direction to get back to the point where the "loop is closed" at the bottom of the Monkey room. After that you're back on your original path to the entrance/exit. So, apparently, no matter which way you go it's the same distance to the exit.

Brian

[Jim Wyatt]

I dove it this past weekend. I'm fairly certain I saw back-to-back arrows in the center of the Godzilla Room. It's in the center of the room, down on the floor. From that point it would be roughly the same distance in either direction to get back to the point where the "loop is closed" at the bottom of the Monkey room. After that you're back on your original path to the entrance/exit. So, apparently, no matter which way you go it's the same distance to the exit.

Brian

Yes...I do recall those arrows now that Brian has brought it up.
At first thought I can think of no good reason for those to be there. Generally we use arrow configurations of this nature to indicate equidistant exits.

My initial reaction is to pull them out.

Any discussion?

[rjack]

My initial reaction is to pull them out.

Any discussion?

I don't know the arrows, but based on Benthic's description the exit line is the same distance either way. So I'm curious why you'd get rid of them? And if they were removed, would you just leave this midpoint section of the loop unmarked?

[Jim Wyatt]

I don't know the arrows, but based on Benthic's description the exit line is the same distance either way. So I'm curious why you'd get rid of them? And if they were removed, would you just leave this midpoint section of the loop unmarked?

Generally the back-to-backs mark exits to an actual exit point, to atmospheric air. If we removed the back-to-backs I think we would point the exit toward the way folks generally come into the Godzilla Room.

The reason to get rid of them is they do not currently fit the paradigm we usually expect back-to-backs to represent....

No decisions have been made about this...I just want to have the discussion.

[Garyd]

Great discussion. I remember the first time I did that dive. It was just I and one other diver and neither of us had been there before. He was leading and did not put a jump line in when we entered, I guess feeling comfortable making the visual jump on the way out. On exit, having never been there before I didn't realize we were exiting out the loop side of the room and not just exploring deeper into the room. When we got to the EOL, I couldn't see the gold line around him and there was a moment of cold, hard dread until my mind made the connection to where we were and what was next. Man...I hate moments like that.

I imagine most of us do the occasional visual jump at spots we know well -for instance, the peanut restriction. That little episode reminded me of just how fast you can get confused when the unexpected happens. I can see where in the event of a major silt out, someone who had never been there (or in any other unfamilair spot obviously) before could get into trouble with confusing arrow configurations. Does it need to be changed? I don't know, but I was pleased to be reminded of the need for awareness and self reliance when cave diving. Rob, thanks for the reminder about placing nondirectional markers in spots like this. Clothespins are cheap!

[Benthic]

<snip>
My initial reaction is to pull them out.

Any discussion?

I'm with rjack, I think they should stay. From the Godzilla room the distance back to the entrance, no matter which direction you choose to follow the line, is roughly the same. If you go one way there's a jump, and if you go the other way there's not. But the distance is about the same. Yes, if you choose one way there's a jump to be made, but there's also a jump to be made back to the mainline.

Brian