When did it become okay to bend or break the rules?

[MengTze]

Jeeeez can you guys slow down a bit............I can't keep up with the posts. I have to work during the day you know.

[BobK]

I truly believe that people like you - NOT people like me - are the problem. And I truly believe that it is you - not I - that is irresponsible.

Andrew, with all due respect, what value does this add ? I would suspect that both people in a real debate believe this same thing, yet one of them is wrong. You often berate others for non-factual input, but this seems to fit that same pattern... Better to stick with facts against facts, and let the rest of us popcorn eaters make the call....

[RN]

A week or so ago instructors emailed amongst themselves a request from a minor to get full cave training. Not bad but this kid (not even cavern) has been nearly a 1000 foot back in Devils and says he's been past 200fsw on air! /Ken

It's very doubtful that kid has really been to where he says he's been. He's been caught in a bunch of lies on SB since then. I also know some people that know one of his family members and again, it's all lies. My concern is this kid is going to try to do one of these dives he claims he's done and get himself killed.

[Ken Hill]

Wow - you did it again, following a specific request.

So... you DON'T have an answer to how to dive solo with a scooter?

As soon as you answer that one, we'll talk about what an irresponsible badass I am.

Andrew,
Why would anyone want to answer your hypothetical? You are making statements about things I've never said .... ever. I never said you were not responsible. I never called you a badass. One day if we ever dive together we'll plan our dive and compare plans and argue what’s the safest for the individual and the team. If you plan to solo who am I to tell you what you need to be at a comfort level with.

Until then see if you can make a plan for any hypothetical dive using ODIGTML for the specific dive.

O- being all the O2 factors, CNS OTU PO2
D- Deco obligation, depth, duration, distance
I - Inert gas narcosis
G- Gas mgmt 1/3rds or more restrictive, (or CCR bailout) with mix to comply with O&I
T- Thermal consideration
M- Mission specific/limit
L - logistics


You don't have to think of it as homework, just another tool for safety. Again, I urge you to book yourself some time at one of the workshops and kick up a storm among a bunch of cave divers.

Lastly, I am done with this thread. There is really nothing new to say that will convince anyone to change their opinion so dive safe and have fun. Those of you that are learning, please go slow and do so in the right way. Talk to people in person that have been around and learn that there is an abundance of good information out there that will help you do this sport safely.

/Ken

[OneBrightGator]

It is my personal belief that it is up to the landowner to police the actions of those diving there.

Ugh. This puts liability on the landowner. How can he/she determine what goes on after the diver enters the cave? This is why we can't cave dive at some places and pay an exorbitant amount to dive at others. Landowners should grant access, what we do once we're on their property is solely our responsibility. I would prefer that natural selection be the only policing of divers, my second choice is Jeff Hancock, landowners are pretty much at the bottom of the list just above government.

[phillip1]

Way back in the day, when I started this thread, it was with the intent of finding out why some people do go beyond what is taught in basic cave class. I think it is fair to say mission accomplished on that one. I have read some things that has made me stop, and rethink some of the things I do, has made me go back and reread some points in my cave books, and flat out just started thinking a little more. There are some things that I dont agree with, but thats okay too. I dont think we should be putting up false statements if its something that we dont believe in, however. At some point, there has to be self policing going on. From day 1 in OW class, we are taught there are no scuba police, it is up to us to make sure we dive within our training and comfort levels. That should never change. The Internet has allowed me to research some dives, and determine for myself if it is something I am comfortable doing. Last time at Ginnie, me and my team was able to make it to the White Room. That was a really cool dive, but without Internet information, I would never have even thought about that dive. I have also read about the Henkle. I know that is beyond me right now, so I keep looking. I really dont like the idea of people having to hide what they do, because of how other people might respond to it.

I think that ALL the safety rules in cave diving should be followed, the only rule I do not agree with is the rule of thirds, to me it is not enough, I never hit thirds I always turn sooner. Not running a continuous line (visual jumps etc..) is completely idiotic, I don't care if you have 8000 dives in the same cave it will come back and bite you one day, and if for some reason some divers feel that it somehow takes up too much time to run jump reels then maybe those divers should practice they're reel work.
This were I am coming from; I do almost 100% exploration dives, I know the caves I dive very very well I know were all the tie off are I made most of them, but I would not even think of doing a visual jump or go off the line to take a look at a leed, I always take the time to run a reel.
Now I have a fair bunch of dives under my belt and a good amount in really gnarly conditions but I really do not consider myself some badass fearless cave diver just someone who loves to cave dive and who wants to increase my safety as much as possible.
No matter what I think I might know about cave diving or how much experience I think I may have I will never loose respect for the caves and become complacent that is a good way to eventually kill yourself.
I think many of the people who think they can get away with doing visuals etc.. think that somehow the amount of dives and experience they may have makes them immune, they should really sit back and think about how incredibly idiotic such practices are.
In a tug of war the cave will most probably win.

[aainslie]

Bob,

Ken is telling me that I'm dangerous. I'm simply replying htat I believe that he, not I, is the problem. If that's not allowed... well,. that seems a little one sided.

Ken,

Thanks for making my point. You, like most instructors (I think you're an instructor), have no idea how to do gas management solo on a scooter. And yet you blithely continue to certify them... even after someone points out that gas planning is poorly (if at all) done.

This is the complacency that will continue to kill, as equipment and techniques outstrip the outmoded rules.

And that's my last post on the topic. I'm done. It shocks me that you all are willing to continue to dive unsafely. I'll put together an article on gas management and sent it to NACD, CDS and NAUI, and see if any of them are willing to publish it. In the interim, I jsut hope that there's no death from solo scootering. And I wait with bated breath for the convoluted assignment of blame for the poor undertrained person's death on one of the 5 rules.

[Cleric]

Originally Posted by Ken Hill
Jeff,

How do you answer that in a public forum knowing there is a chance that someone will read it and take with them an absolute!

I'm sorry, we are not the police. Okay, maybe I am, but not the internet or information police.

There are recipes on the internet that are search-able to build bombs, to create plastique, to create all kinds of havoc on our fellow man. Is there a need for this? IMHO, NO. Of course there are morons out there who publish trash, just because they think they are the smartest, greatest, at whatever they think they are great at. Their information may be good, it may be a hack's attempt at relaying bad information. It may be third or fourth hand. How many credible sites are out there that have bogus information? Hell, even Wikipedia is wrought with bad, sometimes potentially dangerous information.

What this boils down to is PFR, or Personal F*&#-ing Responsibility. Yet another trait lost to the generations. People are on TV killling each other in new, novel ways. So we have copycat killers. I grew up watching the Three Stooges, but yet, I have never run a saw across anyone's head, nor struck someone on the head with a sledge hammer (even though they probably deserved it). It's that PFR that restrains most 'normal' people from doing that kind of crap.

Publishing ideas on this forum and the speaking thereof are not the problem. If that 'kid' referred to earlier, sees some of our (YOUR) discussions on CONSERVATIVE approaches that need to be taken, it may actually cause him to calculate his death-(hopefully)defying dive on the conservative side, even if by accident. For those too truly far gone to realize that 99% of what is out here is WAY beyond their skill, talent, and/or Karma level, well nothing is going to stop them from becoming a statistic.

Ken, I don't know you, nor Andrew, for that matter. I see both sides of your concerns (as best as a newbie can...). My work environment is subject to arm-chair review and possible lawsuits everyday. I work with a team of guys that dress in black and carry MP-5's on the job. I am most cautious by nature, yet at some point each of my Ninja Turtles have to take their own PFR for what we do. EVERYTHING we say, do, publish gets reviewed after every incident. Heaven forbid we get into a shooting? Our training records are reviewed back through time. An instructor I had 20 years ago can be brought forth and his training plan, lesson plan, and his reputation can all be called into judgment by people that weren't even born when he was teaching. It is truly a screwed up world in which we live.

It is possible that anything that is/was written on this forum can be called into question if that little knot-head does something stupid based on what he read. I fear SB and TDS may have a worse time of it.

It may be a good idea to at least move threads that veer off-topic, such as this to a new category of 'bouncing opinions/thoughts' or something that by its nature let's the reader (read: attorney's) know before they enter, that anything under that heading is not 'sanctioned' by the site or any agencies, even if author claims it. They can verify themselves with the agencies.

We all are going to feel that there are things that we can do more than our skills would/should allow. That is natural given the conservative nature of our training and 'rules'. We know, fundamentally that the rules are on the conservative side and we know, intellectually that they can be bent to a degree. Me? I'm not quite ready to test that dog just yet, I'm still to concerned he will bite me in the ass.

Sorry I seem to rant a little, even jump topics. I tend to wax to hear myself.

Roger

[jj1987]

It may be a good idea to at least move threads that veer off-topic, such as this to a new category of 'bouncing opinions/thoughts' or something that by its nature let's the reader (read: attorney's) know before they enter, that anything under that heading is not 'sanctioned' by the site or any agencies, even if author claims it. They can verify themselves with the agencies.

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[Cleric]

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Yeah, what he said!