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  1. #1

    Default When did it become okay to bend or break the rules?

    I have been reading a lot of posts on here, where people admit to making blind jumps. I have also heard in conversations where people are willing to push past their thirds, because the flow coming out is strong enough to bring them out still with their remaining third intact. I understand that these are judgment, and personal decisions. I am not knocking anyone for making these choices, but at what point do we feel we have evolved enough to bypass the very basic rules everyone one of us was taught in cave class? I have some people respond to other posts like this by saying its my choice, if I die, I knew the consequences, etc. I do not agree with that. I am willing to bet that the men and women that are forced to do a search and recovery had better things to do that day. I'm sure that is a call the local police department doesn't want to have to make. Taking it even a step further, its not fair to the remaining cave divers that might have to suffer through another cave system being shut down because of these rule violations.

    I am not sure what kind of responses I am going to get from this, if any, however, its just something that has been bothering me. Again, I am not knocking anyone for doing what they do, I guess I am just trying to understand the thought process.


  2. #2
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    Don't worry, buddy. Most people are with you.

    Which is sad. Why is it that cave diving is so rule bound?

    I really think that Sheck would be shocked at our lack of willingness to THINK if he were here today. He and other divers came up with those rules by thinking. Why the hell did it have to stop once they'd written them down?

    Reminds me of a really cool book for those of you (Bob?) who enjoy reading: Will Self's The Book of Dave:

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159...huc__sim_01_01

    Andrew Ainslie

    Almost extinct cave diver

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by aainslie View Post
    Why is it that cave diving is so rule bound?

    I really think that Sheck would be shocked at our lack of willingness to THINK if he were here today. He and other divers came up with those rules by thinking. Why the hell did it have to stop once they'd written them down?
    I agree that the ability to think, to incorporate lots of information from a variety of sources and to understand complex relationships, and to be able to do it under pressure, is the hallmark of a truly exceptional cave diver.

    I am a psychologist by training and a Program Evaluator by trade, and an understanding of why people feel they "know what they know" and how they resolve conflicts is often very helpful in both fields.

    Some people "know" based on Authority - someone with credibility said it so it must be true. That someone could be Jesus, the President, Shek Exley or GI3. Most people start out that way. When your parents say "because I said so" it is usually good enough when you are 5 or 6, but not so much as you get older.

    As you age and mature you start using other ways of knowing such as the experience and experimentation to see "what happens if" (basically the scientific method).

    You also start using logic to make inferences from one event to another and you even use predjudice as it helps you process large amounts of information quickly. (If I burned my hand on a stove once, I am probably going to "pre-judge" and always assume the stove is hot until I confirm otherwise - its not fair to all those cold stoves out there, but it's the way it is as we are hard wired that way).

    And many people also start looking at philosohy to help piece together a bigger picture of how things relate. This becomes very crucial when confronted with complex problems or situations where rules may conflict or where no rules directly apply.

    ----

    Kohlberg talks about moral and ethical development and it relates closely with how people come to know that they know.

    To simplify it, the earliest stage of development is authoritarian where you do what you do because someone told you to do it and they'll punish you if you don't.

    As you advance you focus on the rules - you do it because the book or the rules tell you to do it, and you generally believe in the concept that without the rules we'd have big problems and/or chaos. Most people operate there most or all of their lives.

    Eventually, some people get to the stage where they realize that the rules are often in conflict, result in a less than optimum outcome or do not fit some unique situations - often in the form of an ethical dilemma. At that point people start to be guided not by the rules, but by the larger purpose the rules are supposed to serve. Doing that requres a great deal of experience and an understanding of what the rules are trying to promote so that you can make judgment calls regarding when to apply or ignore the rules, and if two rules are in conflict, what rule to break and which one to follow. Not everyone ever gets there. And even a person who operates there most of the time will fall back to the lower levels when in unfamiliar territory.

    As applied to cave diving:

    "I am going to do what my cave instructor tells me to do, becasue he will fail me if I do not" is probably pretty common on day one of Cavern or Into Class for most new cave divers as their experience is limited - they don't even know yet what they do not know, so they rely on authority.

    As the cave diver advances, they learn the rules and they apply them. As they gain more and more experience they begin to see both the costs and the benefits of the rules and consider not always following them. (This is a true danger zone, as you may know a lot, but not enough to fully understand all the risks and downsides.)

    And, in a full cave class for example, the instructor is not only assessing whether you follow the rules, but whether you can also think, so you can no longer rely on authority as that "authority" may intentionally lead you off on the wrong line to see if you are aware of it and if you call him on it.

    Also, diving at the Intro/full cave level you begin to see the full impact of some of the ethical dilemmas you may face. If you have a lost buddy, how long do you stay? How much gas to you use? How close do you cut it to exit? There are no cut in stone right or wrong answers as it is very dependent on the specific situation and you need to rely on the higher principles involved, not just the rules, to make a truely ethical decision.

    On the other hand, you need acknowledge the danger zone and be very careful to ensure that you are breaking the rules for a higher purpose rather than just because of complacency, stupidity or ego. Complacency is the negative side effect you acquire from breaking a rule or rules on a regular basis and getting away with it. The sad fact is that you learn a lot more from the stuff that almost kills you, but you only learn it if you survive, while "success" teaches you very little and what it teaches you is often very misleading.

    Similarly, stupid cave divers may break rules for really stupid reasons, like busting thirds because they are sure soemone else will call the dive in the next couple hundred feet and they do not want to be the hoover that thumbs the dive. Cave divers can also break rules due to a lack of confidence or due to a desire to fit in. He or she may not call the dive when they exceed their comfort level as they are afraid they will not be invited to dive with that group again. The "higher purpose" in that case is acceptance, but it is not a purpose worth dying for and it is not worth risking the lives of your team mates.

    So in short, when operating at the level where you take the rules with a grain of salt, you need to be very wise, you need to see the big picture, and you need to be very, very good at predicting unintended consequences. And you need to check your ego and any hubris at the door as at that level, in a cave environment, humility and really knowing your limitations is all that is keeping you alive.

    I'd argue that fewer than 10% of cave divers out there can safely operate at that level and I'd argue that 90% of the cave divers who feel they can, in fact can't. Some of the egos in this sport are monumental.


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster View Post
    I agree that the ability to think, to incorporate lots of information from a variety of sources and to understand complex relationships, and to be able to do it under pressure, is the hallmark of a truly exceptional cave diver.

    I am a psychologist by training and a Program Evaluator by trade, and an understanding of why people feel they "know what they know" and how they resolve conflicts is often very helpful in both fields.

    Some people "know" based on Authority - someone with credibility said it so it must be true. That someone could be Jesus, the President, Shek Exley or GI3. Most people start out that way. When your parents say "because I said so" it is usually good enough when you are 5 or 6, but not so much as you get older.

    As you age and mature you start using other ways of knowing such as the experience and experimentation to see "what happens if" (basically the scientific method).

    You also start using logic to make inferences from one event to another and you even use predjudice as it helps you process large amounts of information quickly. (If I burned my hand on a stove once, I am probably going to "pre-judge" and always assume the stove is hot until I confirm otherwise - its not fair to all those cold stoves out there, but it's the way it is as we are hard wired that way).

    And many people also start looking at philosohy to help piece together a bigger picture of how things relate. This becoems very crucial when confronted with complex problems or situaiosn where rules may conflict or where no rules directly apply.

    ----

    Kohlberg talks about moral and ethical development and it relates closely with how people come to know that they know.

    To simplify it, the earliest stage of development is authoritarian where you do what you do because someone told you to do it and they'll punish you if you don't.

    As you advance you focus on the rules - you do it because the book or the rules tell you to do it, and you generally believe in the concept that without the rules we'd have big problems and/or chaos. Most people operate there most or all of their lives.

    Eventually, some people get to the stage where they realize that the rules are often in conflict, result in a less than optimum outcome or do not fit some unique situations - often in the form of an ethical dilemma. At that point people start to be guided not by the rules, but by the larger purpose the rules are supposed to serve. Doing that requres a great deal of experience and an understanding of what the rules are trying to promote so that you can make judgment calls regarding when to apply or ignore the rues, and if two rules are in conflict, what rule to break and which one to follow. Not everyone ever gets there. And even a person who operates there most of the time will fall back to the lower levels when in unfamiliar territory.

    As applied to cave diving:

    "I am going to do what my cave instructor telle me to do, becasue he will fail me if I do not" is probably pretty common on day one of Cavern or Into Class for most new cave divers as their experience is limited - they don't even know yet what they do not know, so they rely on authority.

    As the cave diver advances, they learn the rules and they apply them. As they gain more and more experience they begin to see both the costs and the benefits of the rules and consider not always following them. (This is a true danger zone, as you may know a lot, but not enough to fully understand the risks and downsides.)

    And, in a full cave class for example, the instructor is not only assessing whether you follow the rules, but whether you can also think, so you can no longer rely on authority as that "authority" may intentionally lead you off on the wrong line to see if you are aware of it and if you call him on it.

    Also, diving at the Intro/full cave level you begin to see the full impact of some of the ethical dilemmas you may face. If you have a lost buddy, how long do you stay? How much gas to you use? How close do you cut it to exit? There are no cut in stone right or wrong answers as it is very dependent on the specific situation and you need to rely on the higher principles involved, not just the rules, to make a truely ethical decision.

    On the other hand, you need acknowledge the danger zone and be very careful to ensure that you are breaking the rules for a higher purpose rather than just because of complacency, stupidity or ego. Complacency is the negative side effect you acquire from breaking a rule or rules on a regular basis and getting away with it. The sad fact is that you learn a lot more from the stuff that almost kills you, but you only learn it if you survive, while "success" teaches you very little and what it teaches you is often very misleading.

    Similarly, stupid cave divers may break rules for really stupid reasons, like busting thirds because they are sure soemone else will call the dive in the next couple hundred feet and they do not want to be the hoover that thumbs the dive. Cave divers can also break rules due to a lack of confidence or due to a desire to fit in. He or she may not call the dive when they exceed their comfort level as they are afraid they will not be invited to dive with that group again. The "higher purpose" in that case is acceptance, but it is not a purpose worth dying for and it is not worth risking the lives of your team mates.

    So in short, when operating at the level where you take the rules with a grain of salt, you need to be very wise, you need to see the big picture, and you need to be very, very good at predicting unintended consequences. And you need to check your ego and any hubris at the door as at that level, in a cave environment, humility and really knowing your limitations is all that is keeping you alive.

    I'd argue that fewer than 10% of cave divers out there can safely operate at that level and I'd argue that 90% of the cave divers who feel they can, in fact can't. Some of the egos in this sport are monumental.
    Excellent Post!

    Meng Tze
    -Homo Bonae Voluntatis

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MengTze View Post
    Excellent Post!
    Agreed!

    Mike


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    Quote Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster View Post
    So in short,
    Too late!

    Whoever said money can't buy love never bought a puppy.

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    Your question is fair enough.

    The answer is when we became adults. We can follow or break rules as we see fit. I choose to follow most, but not all. A couple of examples:

    When scootering Jackson Blue I don't run a primary reel. The flow is such that, even in zero vis, the cave will spit you out from the beginning of the main line.

    In Devil's, I go in the Ear and out the Eye. On almost all days the conditions are such that an exit without a line is a non-issue. Not to mention the dozen lines that are clogging up the entrances.

    During one dive at Little River, we went in with 3600, turned when my buddy hit 2400, and when we exited he had 2100. That's the day we decided that diving extremely high flow systems, we would dive the Rule of 40% instead of 33%. So the next dive there we entered at 3600, turned at 2150, and exited with over 1700.

    When you choose to bend a rule, however, you have to be prepared to live with your decision.

    Whoever said money can't buy love never bought a puppy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slüdge View Post
    When you choose to bend a rule, however, you have to be prepared to live with your decision.
    Or even die with your decision.

    Forrest Wilson (with 2 Rs)
    Any opinions are personal.
    Sump Divers

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    The problem with the rules is that they are made to be simplistic and universal and the caves are not simplistic nor universal. Every single cave is different. When you start cave diving, you know nothing so you apply all rules to the letter. As you get more experience, you see that some of the rules can be applied differently depending on the circumstances. Sometimes it adds safety sometimes it reduces it.

    I see plenty of new cave divers going full 1/3 in no flow system. While they have been told to be conservative during training, they simply follow the rule as it's named: "Rule of 1/3". Andrew brought up some good discussion a while back. While his proposed method was seen as "breaking" 1/3, it would actually reserve more gas in low flow system than the rule of 1/3 while reducing the need for gas in high flow system.

    We all have different views on what can be modified. I don't personally break 1/3 even in high flow. I might recalculate closer to the exit but I don't "cheat" at max penetration. I rarely put a primary at Ginnie and never put a jump at Hill 400 if I'm scootering for example. On the other hand, I put jumps going from white line to white line, any new places or any silty/small place.

    One thing to be said is that new divers should follow the rules until they have gained sufficient experience in a particular cave to make a good judgment.

    Last edited by chimie007; 09-11-2009 at 11:30 AM.
    The shoals are there still, the winds howl loud, the rain beats down, the waves burst strong. Some night, in the chill darkness, someone will make a mistake: The sea will show him no mercy. John T. Cunningham

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    cave are different and you can ajusted yourself.

    I dive mexican cave, never dive florida. the average deep is around 17 feets for most of my cave dive. I dont have a backup computer and I still feel safe.

    depending of the cave configuration and the snorkel people around I sometime leave my primary reel in my car.

    But there is no flow in our cave so I always take rule of 1/3 or rule of 1/4.

    you can ajuste yourself in a way that it still safe for you.

    I think no one seek to die

    Etienne



 

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