When did it become okay to bend or break the rules?

[aainslie]

Andrew, Ken. my name is Andrew. it's in every signature on evry post that I make.

I'm not sure where you were going with the GI3 stuff. I just don't see the comparison. He and I are very different people. I haven't been to the gym in years, and don't appear in public without a shirt if I can possibly avoid it, for starters.

Listen buddy, if you don't like to think, that's cool. You never answer my points directly. Just indirect attempts to justify your unwillingness to think. If you tackle my SUGGESTIONS, I'll go there. In the interim, your luddite intransigence is at best amusing, at worst deadly.

Try to answer this directly. How do YOU recommend handling gas management solo on a scooter? Seriously, give it a bash. because everyone right now is using ad-hoc rules, and one day someone will get hurt. No doubt we'll blame "diving solo" or some such crap - when the REAL answer is, we as a community failed to think hard enough about something that we all do. Technology has moved beyond Exley's days - but we (or at least people like you) haven't.

And once more you accuse me of REDUCING CONSERVATISM. I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.

I'm going to put it in a few times. it might sink in:

I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.


The rules don't handle a lot of situations that need further thought.

Scooters really crack me up. Most instructors teach, know how much gas you need to exit swimming. Few remind you to reserve DOUBLE the gas you need. Fewer still give you a way to compute it.

[Ken Hill]

Andrew, Ken. my name is Andrew.
I'm going to put it in a few times. it might sink in:

I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.
I want to INCREASE CONSERVATISM.


The rules don't handle a lot of situations that need further thought.

Andrew,

My argument with some of your posts boils down to this brief statement. Please don’t make remarks condoning or circumventing the accepted rules that have become the minimum training standards. Saying the “rule of thirds for an outflow cave (such as Devil's) is stupid” is plain wrong on a public forum. It is a standard for every agency. These standards allow access to state parks, let land owners KNOW there are rules, allow insurance companies to underwrite training and instruction.

A week or so ago instructors emailed amongst themselves a request from a minor to get full cave training. Not bad but this kid (not even cavern) has been nearly a 1000 foot back in Devils and says he's been past 200fsw on air! The audience on forums is anonymous; some come to learn and others come to find a shortcut.

I have had the unfortunate task to break bad news and to explain the recovery to two widows and one mother. They all wanted to know what happened? All of them knew their loved one was a bit different or adventurous. Today, normal logic asks who would want to go into an alien environment when there is a DVD. We know better, but we are the minority.

Dive safe and be safe and support the accepted practices when in public ... please. /Ken

[icestac]

Try to answer this directly. How do YOU recommend handling gas management solo on a scooter? Seriously, give it a bash.

Andrew,

My argument with some of your posts boils down to this brief statement. Please don’t make remarks condoning or circumventing the accepted rules that have become the minimum training standards. Saying the “rule of thirds for an outflow cave (such as Devil's) is stupid” is plain wrong on a public forum. It is a standard for every agency. These standards allow access to state parks, let land owners KNOW there are rules, allow insurance companies to underwrite training and instruction.

A week or so ago instructors emailed amongst themselves a request from a minor to get full cave training. Not bad but this kid (not even cavern) has been nearly a 1000 foot back in Devils and says he's been past 200fsw on air! The audience on forums is anonymous; some come to learn and others come to find a shortcut.

I have had the unfortunate task to break bad news and to explain the recovery to two widows and one mother. They all wanted to know what happened? All of them knew their loved one was a bit different or adventurous. Today, normal logic asks who would want to go into an alien environment when there is a DVD. We know better, but we are the minority.

Dive safe and be safe and support the accepted practices when in public ... please. /Ken

For the sake of argument, let's say we always follow 1/3s regardless and everyone is happy. Can we take a look at the other scenarios where it is not enough and there may not be enough emphasis put on those scenarios during everyone's training? I think that is where the real value is. With that in mind, how would you answer the above question?

Cheers,
Jeff

[deepdiverbob]

Way back in the day, when I started this thread, it was with the intent of finding out why some people do go beyond what is taught in basic cave class. I think it is fair to say mission accomplished on that one. I have read some things that has made me stop, and rethink some of the things I do, has made me go back and reread some points in my cave books, and flat out just started thinking a little more. There are some things that I dont agree with, but thats okay too. I dont think we should be putting up false statements if its something that we dont believe in, however. At some point, there has to be self policing going on. From day 1 in OW class, we are taught there are no scuba police, it is up to us to make sure we dive within our training and comfort levels. That should never change. The Internet has allowed me to research some dives, and determine for myself if it is something I am comfortable doing. Last time at Ginnie, me and my team was able to make it to the White Room. That was a really cool dive, but without Internet information, I would never have even thought about that dive. I have also read about the Henkle. I know that is beyond me right now, so I keep looking. I really dont like the idea of people having to hide what they do, because of how other people might respond to it.

[Ken Hill]

Way back in the day, when I started this thread, it was with the intent of finding out why some people do go beyond what is taught in basic cave class. ....

At some point, there has to be self policing going on. .

You are absolutely correct! Those that go beyond training do so for any number of reasons. At one point in time the careless or the adventurous may find themselves to be at their own razor's edge. However, discussing personal experiences and giving dive planning advice based on those experiences may work for some and prove fatal to another. I support safe cave diving, adherence to the rules and conservastion of the systems we have left.

Thanks for a good question. Glad you enjoyed the White Room! /Ken

[Ken Hill]

For the sake of argument, let's say we always follow 1/3s regardless and everyone is happy. Can we take a look at the other scenarios where it is not enough and there may not be enough emphasis put on those scenarios during everyone's training? I think that is where the real value is. With that in mind, how would you answer the above question?

Cheers,
Jeff

Jeff,

How do you answer that in a public forum knowing there is a chance that someone will read it and take with them an absolute! The answer is plain and simple. Plan for the worst case scenario and understand that in any solo scenario you may need to rely on your redundant brain as a last resort.

The trouble publishing a plan is that it may be followed by someone else. About ten years ago I was in the Devils run and a guy surfaced with 100psi after using the long hose of his rescuer. He sold his gear on the spot ... the scooter was a "pickup item" just past stage bottle rock. It was his first (and last) attempt to solo with a new scooter to the Hinkel. A couple of years ago someone gave RB advice and gas management ideas, trouble was the guy was only Intro.

Maybe this forum needs a section where you need to sign in and prove you're a cave diver, using your real name and dates of training and by whom. That's where discussions could flourish and questions could be raised and answered. /Ken


/Ken

[icestac]

How do you answer that in a public forum knowing there is a chance that someone will read it and take with them an absolute! The answer is plain and simple. Plan for the worst case scenario and understand that in any solo scenario you may need to rely on your redundant brain as a last resort.

The trouble publishing a plan is that it may be followed by someone else.

That is all the question was -- how would you plan for it. Right now someone may just buy a scooter (no training require to purchase one as far as I know) and then assume that 1/3s is still valid. I think Andrew's method is flexible enough to handle a number of scenarios, but his point is that there is no general concensus for scenarios where 1/3s is not conservative enough.

If I were to plan for the worst case scenario, I would take into consideration the specific cave and other factors to determine how much gas it would take me to exit the cave -- as opposed to strictly basing it on how much gas I started with when I entered the cave. This number ultimately is based on how far you go into the cave -- the farther in you go, the more gas required to get out and most likely the farther away you get from 1/3s (in a more conservative way).

Maybe this forum needs a section where you need to sign in and prove you're a cave diver, using your real name and dates of training and by whom. That's where discussions could flourish and questions could be raised and answered.

That is a valid suggestion. If such a sub-forum were created, would the assumption be that we can dump all of the "this should not be on a public forum" arguments at the door and focus on intelligent (hopefully ) and healthy discussions.

Cheers,
Jeff

[Cleric]

Okay. I am a fairly new cave diver. Didn't get full cave until last summer. I've only had about a dozen or so caves since, then I had to go back home.

As I've read through this thread, along with the others related to the most recent death, I found myself re-addressing my motivations. While I am still motivated to dive, and dive caves specifically, I find my hunger for the knowledge that you guys have a driving force.

As a Mostly Full-time lurker, I want to know what is going on in the commuinity. What is accepted, and what is not. I am extremely conservative in nature. I have a wife and three kids. I do take that into consideration. I try not to attempt dives in caves that I would not attempt elsewhere (I know caves are like nothing else.) That being said, I am not ready to attempt a dive that puts me into an hour of deco. Niether in caves, nor OW.

I appreciate what ANDREW (hey, I got it right the first time) is trying to say. By fleshing out the arguments for 'standards' for different types of caves / dives, it does not necessarily change the 'golden five'.

I am a firm believer in rules. That being said, it does not violate ANY of those rules to add information/rules/suggestions that when diving in a siphon, heavy (or no) flow, new cave to be MORE CONSERVATIVE with your gas planning approach. I did find out the hard way in Peacock. Went up the Pothole. Saw the 'emergency' exit with line going straight up. Continued on, saw the dbl arrows @ 600' had plenty of gas (I had assumed at the time) and the dive was called.

Upon the return, I did not remember passing the vertical exit. When I came around the left bend, I noticed something strange. A solid wall. It appeared the line went straight up. I thought I was lost. I was on the exact same line, in reverse, but something didn't jive. The gold line was going verticle to the roof. After sucking down a few extra tons of gas, I realized that there was a fissure between the rocks and we had decended down that way. It was totally forgotten from the trip in. When I exited the cave, I had about 1/2 less than the thirds I had 'reserved'. The swim took a bit more effort out, the stress of thinking I was lost and digging into my thirds was ratcheting up, and I distinctly remember thinking: "Note to self: Plan for more than thirds in this damn hole." It stuck with me to this day.

I could have saved myself quite a bit of distress had I seen anything on this, or the other boards being discussed. Those threads were always peer moderated and shut down.

I'm all for conservatism, hell probably more than most, but to shut down viable discussion just to keep idiots from doing what idiots will do: idiotic stuff? I remember the old saying my father once told me. "If you make something idiot-proof, someone will come along and build a bigger idiot."
Cave diving is not idiot proof, not by a long shot. It does however, make it more diffiult for them to propegate.

I think having a 'certified Cave' section would be great, however, who would/could police that? Someone would have to be able to verify through multiple agencies. Wish I had that kind of time!

I would like to thank all who are contributing, as you may have already saved some fool's life, either by turning him away, or by some stroke of bad luck actually making him THINK!

Roger

[aainslie]

You never answer my points directly. Just indirect attempts to justify your unwillingness to think. If you tackle my SUGGESTIONS, I'll go there. In the interim, your luddite intransigence is at best amusing, at worst deadly.

Try to answer this directly. How do YOU recommend handling gas management solo on a scooter? Seriously, give it a bash. because everyone right now is using ad-hoc rules, and one day someone will get hurt.

Andrew,

My argument with some of your posts boils down to this brief statement. Please don’t make remarks condoning or circumventing the accepted rules that have become the minimum training standards. Saying the “rule of thirds for an outflow cave (such as Devil's) is stupid” is plain wrong on a public forum. It is a standard for every agency. These standards allow access to state parks, let land owners KNOW there are rules, allow insurance companies to underwrite training and instruction.

A week or so ago instructors emailed amongst themselves a request from a minor to get full cave training. Not bad but this kid (not even cavern) has been nearly a 1000 foot back in Devils and says he's been past 200fsw on air! The audience on forums is anonymous; some come to learn and others come to find a shortcut.

I have had the unfortunate task to break bad news and to explain the recovery to two widows and one mother. They all wanted to know what happened? All of them knew their loved one was a bit different or adventurous. Today, normal logic asks who would want to go into an alien environment when there is a DVD. We know better, but we are the minority.

Dive safe and be safe and support the accepted practices when in public ... please. /Ken

Wow - you did it again, following a specific request.

So... you DON'T have an answer to how to dive solo with a scooter?

As soon as you answer that one, we'll talk about what an irresponsible badass I am.

I truly believe that people like you - NOT people like me - are the problem. And I truly believe that it is you - not I - that is irresponsible.

[K Mejean]

Jeff,

How do you answer that in a public forum knowing there is a chance that someone will read it and take with them an absolute!

OK. I'm new here and I am only a cavern certified diver but I am working on the rest. That being said.. I think this statement is a little much. Didn't we all learn that are risks associated with scuba? Not just cave but with all scuba. If everyone here is going to be afraid to tell their stories and experiences because of the possiblity that some jack ass is going to go try and do the same thing with no training why are we even on here?
I am here to learn from those with more experience than I have but if you won't tell me about your gas management plans and go into details about the possibilities of rule changes then there is not much benefit.
I understand the desire to keep the cave diving community in good standing and I want no harm to come to the reputation of this community but we can not spend our time trying to police the actions of the uninformed and unintelligent. Stupid people will always do stupid things. We can't stop it no matter how hard we try. At least if they get some information here it will be based in solid training that has been brought to the table by the fellow members.
It is my personal belief that it is up to the landowner to police the actions of those diving there. Not the other divers. Please understand that I am not trying to say we hold no responsibility for our community but we do not have the responsibilty of every individual diver because we have chosen to be part of this communty. If we are going to let others dictate what we can or can not say because it is a public forum then we do ourselves an injustice. Not to mention those like me that will take the information and have further discussions with my instructor and cave mentor. Going over these threads I have learned a great deal and been shown some varying opinions which have allowed me to decide for myself which ones I agree with. If you take away further discussion about things like gas management and accidents then you are robbing me of that choice and the knowledge that is gained which allowed me to make it.

Like others have said here.... I want to say thank you to those that have posted in this thread. I appreciate the opinions and experiences you are sharing.
Ken