Election nss

[bigdave]

I would also add that when we formed the alternative membership we did not raise the CDS portion of the NSS-CDS dues. Doing so would have put them is the $90 range and we feared it would trigger an exodus from the NSS. Understand though that the boards role in this was to propose it to the membership and let them vote on it. They decided. All we did was give them the opportunity to make that choice.

You can't have it both ways. For this discussion, your argument is that all the board did was propose it to the membership and let the membership vote. So it was all in the hands of the membership. But looking a bit more deeply the board DID recommend it to the membership:

"It is our intent to form an alternative membership which accommodates individuals who wish to be CDS members but do not wish to join the NSS."

https://nsscds.org/nsscds/2016-propo...titution-laws/

But when it came to the term limits, the board denied the membership that opportunity to vote.

I doubt the NSS is losing sleep over an exodus of CDS members. I expect their count includes some folks such as myself who identify as CDS, but have allowed their CDS membership to lapse. The CDS may be the largest section/grotto, but there are a LOT of grottos, like nearly 200. I would guess that the number of NSS members who are also paid CDS members is not all that large, and probably shrinking.

Wikipedia says the NSS has over 10,000 members. How many paid members does the CDS have that are now also paying NSS members?

[Sly-vester]

Hi everyone I am not ignoring this thread, I am crunching numbers and will a great post that might surprise some of you.

[JoeyP]

You can't have it both ways. For this discussion, your argument is that all the board did was propose it to the membership and let the membership vote. So it was all in the hands of the membership. But looking a bit more deeply the board DID recommend it to the membership:

"It is our intent to form an alternative membership which accommodates individuals who wish to be CDS members but do not wish to join the NSS."

https://nsscds.org/nsscds/2016-propo...titution-laws/

No argument. If we thought it was a bad idea would never have proposed it. Fact is that we recommended it but the members ultimately decided.

But when it came to the term limits, the board denied the membership that opportunity to vote.

The board voted against it because of member apathy. They feared we would run out of dinosaurs and no one would run. That was not my personal choice but that's why we have a BoD.

I doubt the NSS is losing sleep over an exodus of CDS members. I expect their count includes some folks such as myself who identify as CDS, but have allowed their CDS membership to lapse. The CDS may be the largest section/grotto, but there are a LOT of grottos, like nearly 200. I would guess that the number of NSS members who are also paid CDS members is not all that large, and probably shrinking.

Wikipedia says the NSS has over 10,000 members. How many paid members does the CDS have that are now also paying NSS members?

So you allowed your membership to lapse but you are still interested enough to post here which means that in your heart of hearts you still believe the CDS is viable and not all that horrid.

I believe (not researched) that many of those Grottos are 10-20 members so the 200 Grottos is not all that significant.

Fact is that the If your number is correct then the NSS-CDS represents about 10% of the NSS, maybe more. I suspect they value that number. But ... it really should not be "them vs us" and we never looked at it that way. I believe they were of the same mindset. From what I am told the relationship between the NSS and the NSS-CDS has been quite positive. I hope it remains that way.

As with most things there are those who will naturally resist change. They don't like it. That is their prerogative. The changes made in the CDS were never intended to be adversarial. The intent was to protect and ensure survival during bad times and encourage expansion of our numbers.

The reality is that the NSS-CDS has never been in such a good position financially as it is now. This is a direct result of good management and the utilization of the awesome pool of talent within its ranks. Fresh blood brings new energy and ideas to the table and opens the door to untold opportunities to support education, conservation and exploration.

There are those who would rather live in the past and never evolve, never take a chance on a new idea. Rather than get bogged down in how it was in the past and trying to remain there the CDS should be looking towards the future and embracing what it holds.

[Kelly Jessop]

But when it came to the term limits, the board denied the membership that opportunity to vote.

The bylaws require all bylaw changes be voted on and approved by the membership, this I can assure has been done. I have been part of bylaw rewrites that occurred around 2003, and 2007, and the membership voted on and approved this. Also this last bylaw rewrite went to the membership for vote, because I administered this election. The present bylaws are very specific about term limits, and in the last election we had to research to see if any board members that were re-running didn't trigger this and become disqualified.

[bigdave]

The bylaws require all bylaw changes be voted on and approved by the membership, this I can assure has been done. I have been part of bylaw rewrites that occurred around 2003, and 2007, and the membership voted on and approved this. Also this last bylaw rewrite went to the membership for vote, because I administered this election. The present bylaws are very specific about term limits, and in the last election we had to research to see if any board members that were re-running didn't trigger this and become disqualified.

Apologies, my comment was poorly worded. Perhaps "The board disapproved the proposed term limit changes and therefore the changes were not sent out for a vote" would have been better. I did not intend to imply that the bylaws were not followed. Sorry about that.

They feared we would run out of dinosaurs and no one would run. That was not my personal choice but that's why we have a BoD.

Perhaps you mean that in jest, but in actuality I would suggest strongly you discontinue the dinosaur references. It's not respectful of us older folks.

So you allowed your membership to lapse but you are still interested enough to post here which means that in your heart of hearts you still believe the CDS is viable and not all that horrid.

I guess that would be largely accurate. I do not think the CDS is horrid, but am disappointed that it does not want to support the NSS and am still dismayed that Sheck's property was sold.

As with most things there are those who will naturally resist change. They don't like it. That is their prerogative. The changes made in the CDS were never intended to be adversarial. The intent was to protect and ensure survival during bad times and encourage expansion of our numbers.

Please ease up on the implied criticism. I don't resist change, but I do know from experience that change is not always good. No matter how bad things are, they can always get worse.

There are those who would rather live in the past and never evolve, never take a chance on a new idea. Rather than get bogged down in how it was in the past and trying to remain there the CDS should be looking towards the future and embracing what it holds.

OK, I would argue that there are those who do not respect or understand the past. Everything you do as a cave diver is built on what the original cave divers did. The NSS-CDS was built by the original cave divers.

Not everything that the older generation did was good, but most of it was.

Cheers,

David

[jlillest]

I doubt the NSS is losing sleep over an exodus of CDS members. I expect their count includes some folks such as myself who identify as CDS, but have allowed their CDS membership to lapse. The CDS may be the largest section/grotto, but there are a LOT of grottos, like nearly 200. I would guess that the number of NSS members who are also paid CDS members is not all that large, and probably shrinking.

Wikipedia says the NSS has over 10,000 members. How many paid members does the CDS have that are now also paying NSS members?

It's worth noting that the 10,000 member number is several years old (maybe 2010ish, or as early as 2008) and the NSS has been bleeding members at a rate of 300 or so per year. These numbers are mostly taken from various reports and director candidate platform statements. These are not easy to come by, so I wish I could provide more solid sources.

As before, I welcome anyone with solid sources or more actual numbers. I suspect those sources could be found in NSS BOD minutes, but those shouldn't be posted publicly.

I don't know how this correlates to the CDS membership numbers, but if you read board statements and candidate platforms it appears that the loss of membership is a big concern for the NSS (as it should be). I'd welcome any comments on the state of CDS membership over the past decade and what the current trend is. Does anyone have real numbers they can share? It's hard to discuss a topic like this without knowing what the numbers actually are.

[JoeyP]

Apologies, my comment was poorly worded. Perhaps "The board disapproved the proposed term limit changes and therefore the changes were not sent out for a vote" would have been better. I did not intend to imply that the bylaws were not followed. Sorry about that.

Perhaps you mean that in jest, but in actuality I would suggest strongly you discontinue the dinosaur references. It's not respectful of us older folks.

I am one of those older folks so I include myself in those references. I did hull inspections for Noahs Ark. No disrespect intended.

I guess that would be largely accurate. I do not think the CDS is horrid, but am disappointed that it does not want to support the NSS and am still dismayed that Sheck's property was sold.

That is not accurate. The CDS does want to support the NSS as evidenced by the Board not raising the dues to CDS members who joined the NSS. This was specifically to not hurt the NSS. We did not want to sell Cathedral. We HAD to sell Cathedral.

Please ease up on the implied criticism. I don't resist change, but I do know from experience that change is not always good. No matter how bad things are, they can always get worse.

Agreed and wasn't trying to criticize you. If you look, nothing has really changed. The Alternative membership did not detract from the NSS and most likely picked up disgruntled NACD people who might ultimately join the NSS-CDS.

OK, I would argue that there are those who do not respect or understand the past. Everything you do as a cave diver is built on what the original cave divers did. The NSS-CDS was built by the original cave divers.

I have a huge respect for the past. I just don't want to live in it. Remember VooDoo gas LOL?

I also have a huge appreciation for the opportunities the future holds.

Not everything that the older generation did was good, but most of it was.

Cheers,

David

I would agree with that and add that all of the knowledge we enjoy today was paid for with the lives, blood and sweat of those who went first. I just like to think of them as true explorers and in that tradition the CDS should explore new ideas and methods and resist the temptation to remain static and safe. There is nothing safe about what we do.

Cheers!

Joe

[FW]

The CDS is down some from a couple years ago, but still around 10% of the total NSS membership.

[bigdave]

It's worth noting that the 10,000 member number is several years old (maybe 2010ish, or as early as 2008) and the NSS has been bleeding members at a rate of 300 or so per year. These numbers are mostly taken from various reports and director candidate platform statements. These are not easy to come by, so I wish I could provide more solid sources.

As before, I welcome anyone with solid sources or more actual numbers. I suspect those sources could be found in NSS BOD minutes, but those shouldn't be posted publicly.

I don't know how this correlates to the CDS membership numbers, but if you read board statements and candidate platforms it appears that the loss of membership is a big concern for the NSS (as it should be). I'd welcome any comments on the state of CDS membership over the past decade and what the current trend is. Does anyone have real numbers they can share? It's hard to discuss a topic like this without knowing what the numbers actually are.

Thank you for the update on NSS membership numbers. I looked at all of the candidate platforms and 3 of them reference membership levels between 8500 and 9000.

When I took my cave diving training back in the day, students were encouraged to join the NSS, the CDS, and the NACD to support caving. And I joined all 3.

The CDS is down some from a couple years ago, but still around 10% of the total NSS membership.

Forrest - Does that 10% total include all of the CDS members, or just the CDS members who are also NSS members?

Thank you,

David

[OFG-1]

They feared we would run out of dinosaurs and no one would run.

Personally, I think of myself more as a fossil from the obscene period.

Joe, since you and a few others are in a position to answer this question, what exactly is the upside for anyone to actually serve on this board? The downside is evident.