Election nss

[cerich]

Me too. Personally, without the NSS, the CDS has the chance to head the route of the NACD. If the CDS' only identifier is training, and with all the other training agencies, then yes, the CDS will potentially become the NACD. With a connection to the NSS, survival as an organization is more assured.

agree...

[MORGAN]

Me too. Personally, without the NSS, the CDS has the chance to head the route of the NACD. If the CDS' only identifier is training, and with all the other training agencies, then yes, the CDS will potentially become the NACD. With a connection to the NSS, survival as an organization is more assured.

Agreed. The closer we remain to the rest of the NSS, the better.

[jlillest]

Joe, thanks for the good response. Some questions:

In years gone by a small group of well meaning people ran the NSS-CDS into the ground with a string of bad decisions which almost led to its demise.

Can you provide some examples of these bad decisions? I'm aware of the major problems from decades ago, the ones that made the CDS look like the NACD of 2-3 years ago, but I'm not aware of anything in the recent decade which was caused through board member malice.

Those bylaw changes were designed to put the NSS-CDS in a better situation should another adverse circumstance arise and to help it expand its numbers. It was done at the suggestion of the NSS after TJ was sent to one of their meetings.

Can you offer more details on who in the NSS suggested the change and what parts they suggested be changed? The bylaw change wasn't a singular thing, it offered several different changes and I'm not sure I understand which part was the suggestion. I've had discussions with several people across the NSS power structure (including the IO Committee) and I haven't met anyone that was aware of it until the vote was published on the website.

If the NSSCDS is to grow and prosper it can not have a board filled by the same people with the same stale ideas year after year for decades. It needs fresh blood with new ideas which is why it desperately needs to have term limits established, not the faux revolving door limits it currently has.

The CDS currently has term limits in it's bylaws. Which part of this are you looking to change? While I can agree with not allowing people to run indefinitely, there are controls for this in place and I believe a democratic process should handle any problems arising from it anyway, right?

This has been a good discussion, I'm looking forward to learning more.

[JoeyP]

Joe, thanks for the good response. Some questions:

Can you provide some examples of these bad decisions? I'm aware of the major problems from decades ago, the ones that made the CDS look like the NACD of 2-3 years ago, but I'm not aware of anything in the recent decade which was caused through board member malice.

No malice is suggested and I'm not pointing a finger at any one board or decade. That said, one bad decision was to title properties with dive able sinkholes on them in the name of the NSS-CDS with no conservation easements. This was suggested and voted down because they wanted to use the properties as collateral for future purchases. Of course no bank would ever finance undeveloped property, especially one with a sink hole on it but evidently no one researched that.

Another was to move the storage warehouse to Tallahassee where there was only one person available to manage and access it when the overwhelming majority of active members were in the Ocala to Lake City region. *Very* impractical and counter productive. The result was that there was untold dollars wasted in unnecessary travel and in inventory we didn't know we had because it was never properly tracked. Then there was the purchase of *palletts* of books that no sane person would ever expect to sell in a reasonable time frame. We are still offering these for sale years later.

Or how about the manuscripts for a new cave book that were donated to the NSS-CDS by numerous authors and then saved on private computers. They were allegedly stored on a cloud server. When I asked for the files to put them on the CDS computers because it was CDS property I was told there was a computer crash and all was lost. You never store files in one place on one PC, especially one you have no control over. Over time many things similar to this have been changed and the NSS-CDS has gravitated towards being run like a business that uses professional service where ever possible so that its critical operations are not dependent upon on one person or organization

I could go on but I think you get my point. It was being run like a private good old boys club - (sometimes - not all boards conducted themselves that way).

Can you offer more details on who in the NSS suggested the change and what parts they suggested be changed? The bylaw change wasn't a singular thing, it offered several different changes and I'm not sure I understand which part was the suggestion. I've had discussions with several people across the NSS power structure (including the IO Committee) and I haven't met anyone that was aware of it until the vote was published on the website.

OK. You will have to ask TJ that question because we sent him to the NSS annual meeting to ask for help with the lawsuit. Our Treasurer at the time also asked them to not raise the dues to CDS members. Their response was that they had a building to pay for and could not give the CDS a break on the dues. TJ went to the meeting and they told him we could form an alternative membership so that members who wanted to join the CDS only for whatever reason could do so (often times foreign visitors who wanted to dive Cow but didn't want to spend a lot of money). This would allow the CDS to keep all of those dues which would be helpful to its bottom line.

Now, consider that for an NSS-CDS membership the net figure on dues was about $3-5 annually after deducting expenses. Also consider that we were at the tail end of a lawsuit that bled us dry and in the event of an unfavorable decision we had nothing to go to the table with. There would be no viable option we could offer as a payout settlement over time. The alternative membership was the closest thing we could use to create a predictable revenue stream so we could offer to pay a given amount on a schedule. Were there an unfavorable decision and we couldn't come to an agreement a liquidation of assets could and most likely would be forced.

The CDS currently has term limits in it's bylaws. Which part of this are you looking to change? While I can agree with not allowing people to run indefinitely, there are controls for this in place and I believe a democratic process should handle any problems arising from it anyway, right?

This has been a good discussion, I'm looking forward to learning more.

The term limits in place are for no more than 3 consecutive terms. Then you can sit out one year and you could start the 6 year cycle all over again. If you and I ran on alternate years one of us could be chair indefinitely. This is what destroyed our sister organization.

There may be some that are wondering why I am revealing all of this. First, the membership has a right to know if they ask and second, the notion that I "pushed" anything through suggests it was done in an underhanded way which is an absolute falsehood. Nothing was traded or bargained for by anyone and they guy that says I "pushed" things through did not vote against it because even he realized it was necessary. The only thing those bylaw changes did was place the NSS-CDS in a better position should things go awry again.

[Kelly Jessop]

No malice is suggested and I'm not pointing a finger at any one board or decade. That said, one bad decision was to title properties with dive able sinkholes on them in the name of the NSS-CDS with no conservation easements. This was suggested and voted down because they wanted to use the properties as collateral for future purchases. Of course no bank would ever finance undeveloped property, especially one with a sink hole on it but evidently no one researched that.

Another was to move the storage warehouse to Tallahassee where there was only one person available to manage and access it when the overwhelming majority of active members were in the Ocala to Lake City region. *Very* impractical and counter productive. The result was that there was untold dollars wasted in unnecessary travel and in inventory we didn't know we had because it was never properly tracked. Then there was the purchase of *palletts* of books that no sane person would ever expect to sell in a reasonable time frame. We are still offering these for sale years later.

Or how about the manuscripts for a new cave book that were donated to the NSS-CDS by numerous authors and then saved on private computers. They were allegedly stored on a cloud server. When I asked for the files to put them on the CDS computers because it was CDS property I was told there was a computer crash and all was lost. You never store files in one place on one PC, especially one you have no control over. Over time many things similar to this have been changed and the NSS-CDS has gravitated towards being run like a business that uses professional service where ever possible so that its critical operations are not dependent upon on one person or organization

I could go on but I think you get my point. It was being run like a private good old boys club - (sometimes - not all boards conducted themselves that way).



OK. You will have to ask TJ that question because we sent him to the NSS annual meeting to ask for help with the lawsuit. Our Treasurer at the time also asked them to not raise the dues to CDS members. Their response was that they had a building to pay for and could not give the CDS a break on the dues. TJ went to the meeting and they told him we could form an alternative membership so that members who wanted to join the CDS only for whatever reason could do so (often times foreign visitors who wanted to dive Cow but didn't want to spend a lot of money). This would allow the CDS to keep all of those dues which would be helpful to its bottom line.

Now, consider that for an NSS-CDS membership the net figure on dues was about $3-5 annually after deducting expenses. Also consider that we were at the tail end of a lawsuit that bled us dry and in the event of an unfavorable decision we had nothing to go to the table with. There would be no viable option we could offer as a payout settlement over time. The alternative membership was the closest thing we could use to create a predictable revenue stream so we could offer to pay a given amount on a schedule. Were there an unfavorable decision and we couldn't come to an agreement a liquidation of assets could and most likely would be forced.



The term limits in place are for no more than 3 consecutive terms. Then you can sit out one year and you could start the 6 year cycle all over again. If you and I ran on alternate years one of us could be chair indefinitely. This is what destroyed our sister organization.

There may be some that are wondering why I am revealing all of this. First, the membership has a right to know if they ask and second, the notion that I "pushed" anything through suggests it was done in an underhanded way which is an absolute falsehood. Nothing was traded or bargained for by anyone and they guy that says I "pushed" things through did not vote against it because even he realized it was necessary. The only thing those bylaw changes did was place the NSS-CDS in a better position should things go awry again.

Joe, thank you for responding here. Firstly, thank you, and anybody who has served on the CDS board, it is a hard job, that can be more frustrating than rewarding. You and I have had some candid discussions, and I have always felt we have gone away with mutual respect,but I always valued your input. You and the board at that time saw the CDS through an uncertain future with the lawsuit, did what you thought was best, and as a result the CDS has a future. I think the new board that will be seated soon, needs to know their past to understand how not to repeat past mistakes, plus they need to have goals for the organization for the future. The CDS was aligned with the NSS by Sheck, versus starting a stand alone organization like the NACD at the time. Having this alignment with a much larger national organization has its advantage,but rarely has the CDS exploited it. My challenge to the next board, try to understand the NSS, and what benefits of resource sharing can occur. Besides the NSS doing dues processing, in the past they have published books for the CDS, award recognition for CDS members at the national level, grants, purchased properties etc.

[FW]

...There was nothing "anti NSS" about the bylaw change unless you consider anything pro NSS-CDS to be anti NSS. ..

You don't consider this to be Pro NSS do you?

From Joe's "new" constitution:
ARTICLE VIII:
The Constitution, and Bylaws of the NSS shall NOT be binding on the NSS-CDS

Not to mention there was never a reason to put in the CDS only membership level. The NSS has always allowed grottos to have non NSS members.

[bamafan]

You don't consider this to be Pro NSS do you?

From Joe's "new" constitution:
ARTICLE VIII:
The Constitution, and Bylaws of the NSS shall NOT be binding on the NSS-CDS

Not to mention there was never a reason to put in the CDS only membership level. The NSS has always allowed grottos to have non NSS members.

One thing that is being ignored is the NSS only allows this for 1 year then you must join the CDS if you want to stay active with the grotto. I think it was meant to be a way for people to try out the grotto and hopefully join after the 1 year period. I don't think the CDS is using it this way and to comply with the NSS they need to track these members and I doubt that is done. I also doubt the number of divers has increased substantially at Cow due to this change.

[Kelly Jessop]

One thing that is being ignored is the NSS only allows this for 1 year then you must join the CDS if you want to stay active with the grotto.

I think you mean you can be a CDS member for only 1 year, and then have to have a NSS membership. That is correct per the IO policy https://caves.org/nss-business/bog/Append-D.pdf

[bamafan]

I think you mean you can be a CDS member for only 1 year, and then have to have a NSS membership. That is correct per the IO policy https://caves.org/nss-business/bog/Append-D.pdf

Yes I mistyped sitting in traffic.

[JoeyP]

Joe, thank you for responding here. Firstly, thank you, and anybody who has served on the CDS board, it is a hard job, that can be more frustrating than rewarding. You and I have had some candid discussions, and I have always felt we have gone away with mutual respect,but I always valued your input. You and the board at that time saw the CDS through an uncertain future with the lawsuit, did what you thought was best, and as a result the CDS has a future. I think the new board that will be seated soon, needs to know their past to understand how not to repeat past mistakes, plus they need to have goals for the organization for the future. The CDS was aligned with the NSS by Sheck, versus starting a stand alone organization like the NACD at the time. Having this alignment with a much larger national organization has its advantage,but rarely has the CDS exploited it. My challenge to the next board, try to understand the NSS, and what benefits of resource sharing can occur. Besides the NSS doing dues processing, in the past they have published books for the CDS, award recognition for CDS members at the national level, grants, purchased properties etc.

Thank you Kelly. The BOD was faced with tough decisions and we did what we thought was best for the NSS-CDS and I think it is in good shape as a result of those decisions.