Election nss

[Jim Wyatt]

Thank you Kelly. The BOD was faced with tough decisions and we did what we thought was best for the NSS-CDS and I think it is in good shape as a result of those decisions.

I agree with Joe that the CDS is in better shape today. I also agree the CDS needs to not have dinosaurs on the BoD year after year with the same stale ideas.

As far as "pushing" through the membership by-law, it was voted in the a majority of the membership. Sour Grapes comes to mind...

[JoeyP]

You don't consider this to be Pro NSS do you?

From Joe's "new" constitution:
ARTICLE VIII:
The Constitution, and Bylaws of the NSS shall NOT be binding on the NSS-CDS

That was not anti NSS but pro CDS. Our job was to protect the CDS first. That statement was put in so if a few guys like you were on the NSS board they couldn't arbitrarily undo what we did. Nothing more. None of this would have come about if we were not in survival mode but we were and the reason we were is because we were being run with a 1970s mentality in the 21st century. All the board did was remove us from the time warp we were trapped in.

Not to mention there was never a reason to put in the CDS only membership level. The NSS has always allowed grottos to have non NSS members.

I never heard any suggestions other than negativity. What would you have called it? A non NSS NSS_CDS membership?

[bigdave]

TJ went to the meeting and they told him we could form an alternative membership so that members who wanted to join the CDS only for whatever reason could do so (often times foreign visitors who wanted to dive Cow but didn't want to spend a lot of money). This would allow the CDS to keep all of those dues which would be helpful to its bottom line.

"A lot of money"? You can be an NSS member for $40 per year. That's not a lot of money for any technical diver, especially for a foreign visitor who has spent a lot of money to come to this country and presumably has spent considerable funds on equipment and training. It's quite reasonable IMO to ask visitors to help support the organizations that do so much to keep caves open.

It needs fresh blood with new ideas which is why it desperately needs to have term limits established, not the faux revolving door limits it currently has.

Was there some reason you were not able to change this during you were the chair?

Thank you,

David

[JoeyP]

"A lot of money"? You can be an NSS member for $40 per year. That's not a lot of money for any technical diver, especially for a foreign visitor who has spent a lot of money to come to this country and presumably has spent considerable funds on equipment and training. It's quite reasonable IMO to ask visitors to help support the organizations that do so much to keep caves open.

Agreed but you'd be surprised at the number of people that don't want to spend the $70. but will spend the $35. Also, the $35. does a lot more towards keeping the caves open than does the $70 because the CDS only sees $3-5 of the $70 but $35 of the $35.

Was there some reason you were not able to change this during you were the chair?

Thank you,

David

I proposed putting it on the ballot but the board voted it down.

[Kelly Jessop]

the CDS only sees $3-5.

Isn't this more of a function of UWS? I remember when I was on the BOD, UWS was eating up 100% of the dues. One day I hope UWS could go digital, and save the CDS a fortune.

[JoeyP]

Isn't this more of a function of UWS? I remember when I was on the BOD, UWS was eating up 100% of the dues. One day I hope UWS could go digital, and save the CDS a fortune.

I agree with the numbers but a survey of the membership indicated that most wanted a printed UWS. We were afraid that we would lose a good portion of our membership if we went digital. Many of the older members who were no longer cave diving and many of the members who lived out of state and by virtue of geography do not have the same direct contact with the sport we Floridians enjoy really want that printed magazine and if it was at all possible we did not want to change that.

[bigdave]

Agreed but you'd be surprised at the number of people that don't want to spend the $70. but will spend the $35. Also, the $35. does a lot more towards keeping the caves open than does the $70 because the CDS only sees $3-5 of the $70 but $35 of the $35.

No, the $70 does more good towards keeping caves open because the caving community gets more money overall.

If TJ agrees with this sentiment then I surely could not vote for him to be part of the NSS leadership.

I proposed putting it on the ballot but the board voted it down.

Fair 'nuf.

[JoeyP]

I would also add that when we formed the alternative membership we did not raise the CDS portion of the NSS-CDS dues. Doing so would have put them is the $90 range and we feared it would trigger an exodus from the NSS. Understand though that the boards role in this was to propose it to the membership and let them vote on it. They decided. All we did was give them the opportunity to make that choice.

I think the NSS is a worthwhile organization and the affiliation with it is a good thing. I also know we were in survival mode and had to restructure some things to ensure that. The changes do nothing to detract from that affiliation and probably enhances it because the CDS is a huge contributor (member dues) to the NSS. Were it to go under because of that frivolous lawsuit the NSS would lose quite a bit of revenue because most NSS-CDS members are not dry cavers and would most probably not join the NSS only.

[jlillest]

Agreed but you'd be surprised at the number of people that don't want to spend the $70. but will spend the $35. Also, the $35. does a lot more towards keeping the caves open than does the $70 because the CDS only sees $3-5 of the $70 but $35 of the $35.

I think it's fair to say it's not much money overall, but $70 is a lot to spend on a constantly bickering organization when you're not sure which direction it's heading. I'm supportive of all those who have served on the board, and totally respect the work that has been done, but want to offer an outsiders perspective of what some of the rest of us see. I understand the stressful times of the lawsuit, but that doesn't fully explain the aimless nature of the organization.

Also, your numbers are a bit skewed to support your point. I think it would be fairer to say that the cost breakdown is closer to the following:

NSS-CDS: $70 = $50(NSS) + $3(Member/CC processing) + $12(UWS) + $5(CDS)
CDS only: $35 = $5(Member/CC processing) + $12(UWS) + $18(CDS)

So, we're really arguing about ~$5 versus ~$18 per member. I'll admit this is more money, but it's a far cry from the picture you're trying to paint. I've mentioned this before, but part of the cost of having members is the membership and credit card processing fees. We're currently using the NSS for this, which is fine in my book, but if you have a guaranteed way to save us these costs or the UWS costs then I'm all for it. But, more importantly, I think your skewing of the numbers is dishonest and we need to talk real numbers if we're going to have a real discussion about the merits of the different routes the society could take.

So, to be fair from my side, the numbers above are from my own flawed recollection of discussions that I've had with various BOD members over the years. I don't have the exact numbers, though I know they're close, so I welcome anyone that is willing to offer updates that are factually based. I know I was quoted the $12 per member number for the UWS and the approximate per member processing fee (which was based on credit card processing fees at ~3% per member + administrative fee).


That being said, Joe, I'm thankful for the years you served on the BOD and totally respect the job you did and am thankful you're willing to contribute meaningfully to the ongoing discussion. Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

[Kelly Jessop]

a constantly bickering organization when you're not sure which direction it's heading.

You do mean the NSS? Trust me when it comes to bickering the grottos and the NSS have the CDS looking like amateurs. I get very amused when people use terms like "cave politics" when talking about cave diving organizations, when our dry caving brothers do it so much better. But, I still support the NSS, and CDS, because overall they generate a lot of good.

The CDS had it made when the NSS had their basic membership, which gave the CDS members their NSS membership at a very nominal fee, and without NSS News. This is the ideal situation, which would be great if this membership category was brought back