Help close Eagle's Nest.

[Tegg]

Here's an idea. What if we start putting up "memorial" plaques al all the sites where people have died. It would have pictures of the deceased, and a brief description of how and why they died. At the bottom, we could end with "honor these people by learning from their deaths. please don't dive without sufficient training and preparation." It'll be sufficiently respectful to not piss off their families, but will tell a pretty chilling tale. Biut it's not really a memorial, it's more like those anti smoking ads with some guy with a tube out their throats.

Making it personal might get the message across better.

I would support this... only if they listed all of the individuals that perished at a site, and then left a space at the bottom and just have it say... "Your Name Here?"

[thatcampbellkid]

Has anyone scratched tally marks into the warning sign yet... ?

[Hammerhead Ferrari]

If a memorial plaque for these two goes into the cave following this incident, I will pull it out and throw it in the weeds the next day.

IMHO, I agree. A memorial for these two does not belong IN the cave.
However, Dillon was a 15yo kid being lead down a dangerous path by his father. No matter anyone's emotions, he truly was a victim.

Here's an idea. What if we start putting up "memorial" plaques at all the sites where people have died. It would have pictures of the deceased, and a brief description of how and why they died. At the bottom, we could end with "honor these people by learning from their deaths. please don't dive without sufficient training and preparation." It'll be sufficiently respectful to not piss off their families, but will tell a pretty chilling tale. But it's not really a memorial, it's more like those anti smoking ads with some guy with a tube out their throats.

Making it personal might get the message across better.

I agree with a memorial like this here may be helpful in the future...it should have a statement something to the effect of:
"If your loved ones are diving here without qualifications like these two did, please intervene and demand they don't! You could be saving their lives! Your loved one needs cave training, decompression training, & mixed gas training to dive safely here.
If you choose to say nothing, please provide a photo of your loved ones to add to this memorial."

Mr. Spivey was made aware of the risks he was taking and was advised to get training, which he disregarded. Judging by his families statements "he didn't take chances, safety was a priority," his family wasn't aware of the severity of the risk he took, because it's easy to fool someone who doesn't have the knowledge...however a family member reading a statement like the above may then have just enough information to ask questions. I think the mother would have paid more attention to this than the current sign.

[allen]

"honor these people by learning from their deaths. please don't dive without sufficient training and preparation." -aainslie
+1

[Walter Pickel]

Come on Mike, we can put it right next to the one for the 2 guys from back in 04...oh wait, it's missing. Or how about we put it next to the stone cross in EN...oh wait, it's missing... I'm seeing a pattern here. You're right, it's not a good idea.

Or like the memorial in the Ice Room at Ginnie -- gone. Who really wants to be reminded of deaths when they are planning a dive or on a dive; that is counter intuitive. In my opinion, if you really want to make an impression, the truth really needs to be told. The truth in all its gory, bloated, bloody, stoic, graphic detail. I feel that only then, when the "reaper" is humanized will consequences actually start to sink in.

If people are driving to the Nest they already have their minds made up; they are going to dive. I feel these "memorials" are a coping mechanism for the bereaved; nothing more. The reaper signs are interesting but I have seen too many simple swim past them in the MX or in FL or anywhere. If someone is already there, do "we" as a community think the signs really work today? Are they as effective as they were when they were created? Is today's diver more thirsty for more -- to emulate movies and television? Cave diving has been made "sexy" and that is a fact that has to be dealt with.

After the recovery we did at Wayne's World, I asked the NACD to post the pictures of Jessic and or Joe on the cover of the Journal. Of course, no one wanted to do this. Why? Why not show the hard truth regarding consequences? Could it possible make people angry and not take training? The scene being played out today seems to be that of a delicate balance of "discussing" education and safety but not really wanting to educate -- show the pictures of the decedents, show the pictures of masks torn off or blood in the mask, show the bloated bodies that woefully expand drysuits to the seams. This is not about scaring but about telling the truth. It isn't so much as "telling" someone that have made a bad choice but there needs to be teeth; show them what other bad choices resulted in.

For those clawing to get "information" from the IUCRR; to what end? To me, it seems as though you are looking to selflessly fulfill a primordial desire to feel reassured that it wasn't you or you are trying to cope. Most IUCRR reports are simple statements of fact -- mask off, fins off, gas analysis, blood in mask, guideline torn, certifications. In my opinion, these do not help you make decisions on how to plan dives. These reports offer law enforcement to have details that otherwise they would not. In many cases, these details can be used to refute issues in court or simply to impeach testimony given at depositions.

Many of you know me and many don't. I try desperately not to argue unless I feel that I am right and I try to only, only post facts. In this case, the above are my thoughts and feelings after losing friends, working on recoveries and dealing with corpses.

[jitka]

Sorry guys, but I feel double posting is in place here; as I am against closing EN:
I have a suggestion: Rather than locking Eagles Nest up - how about prohibiting private dive shops and instructors from profiteering and teaching at this site!!! It is not suitable for teaching cave diving or deep diving or gas diving or teaching any kind of diving!
IUCRR, dive cert agencies and all of you concerned about this and other accidents in caves - post yet another sign that will explain that any kind of teaching of any kind of diving is not allowed on this public property.
I believe that the dive instructors and shops who bring students and show them this site are the main problem. Nest is a convenient, CHEAP, nearby site for many of the unscrupulous instructors who don't really care as far as they get their $$$.

Those of you who are not even from this area: in the years when the Nest was officially closed - there was busy traffic of midnight and early am "sneak" cave divers, but they were all in the know how. There was no teaching going on!
There was exploration and competent diving
When officials showed up - even in helicopters shining their lights into the divers' truck beds - concerned - yes - about game poachers.
Correct me if I am wrong but in the days of the Nest being a secret, not a "commercial" (for dive instructors) squirrel pit like it is now - there were no accidents, the cave was pristine, no condoms, garbage and excrements anywhere... yet there was exploration and a lot of competent diving going on.

I like the comparisons of mountain climbing or white water boating or endurance horse riding, dog sledding, balloon flying or other types of explorations, you get the point - these sports and activities somehow bring communities of participants who are aware of the beauties as well as the dangers of their favorite past time and they - opposite to some so called cave divers - do not try to shut their favorite gateways!!!

The Eagles Nest doesn't need to be locked up - only those who abuse and profit no matter what from this site should be eliminated. Let Eagles Nest be the "Mount Everest or Grand Canyon" or whatever to those who come from all over the world and competently explore this natural wonder in Hernando County, Florida.

WOW, by the way I just became aware of what was quoted on another diving web site as a price for cave diving related classes:
Advanced Nitrox/Deco procedures 600.00
Advanced Trimix 1200.00
cavern/intro 600.00
Apprentice cave 600.00
Cave 800.00
Technical Cave 800.00 - 1000.00

Hmmm, all that to an instructor who is using publicly owned Eagles Nest for $3/ day or even cheaper if he gets a yearly pass? Hope the FWC pays attention to this rather than to closing this fabulous property they have been entrusted to chaperone by the public!

[JohnAd]

WOW, by the way I just became aware of what was quoted on another diving web site as a price for cave diving related classes:
Advanced Nitrox/Deco procedures 600.00
Advanced Trimix 1200.00
cavern/intro 600.00
Apprentice cave 600.00
Cave 800.00
Technical Cave 800.00 - 1000.00

Hmmm, all that to an instructor who is using publicly owned Eagles Nest for $3/ day or even cheaper if he gets a yearly pass? Hope the FWC pays attention to this rather than to closing this fabulous property they have been entrusted to chaperone by the public!

There is a lot more to instruction than the park entry fees. When I did my cave instruction, the fees I paid were less than that, but they did not include the park entry fees. I had to pay that in addition. I have written about it before--I think what I paid for those classes and what I got as a result was one of the best bargains I ever got in scuba. In my case, I had a package that included lodging. I figured it out and determined that counting lodging, I paid less money per day for very intense instruction than I paid per day for two tank recreational boat dives in Hawai'i.

As for the Trimix courses, there is once again a lot more to it than entry fees, and you can't tell for sure what the prices include. I paid more than that, but my gas and some of my boat fees were included.

I teach Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures, and at the price listed, I would probably not make a whole lot more than minimum wage.

[Pavão]

...

...Hmmm, all that to an instructor who is using publicly owned Eagles Nest for $3/ day or even cheaper if he gets a yearly pass? Hope the FWC pays attention to this rather than to closing this fabulous property they have been entrusted to chaperone by the public!

What are you suggesting, price increase for instructors/shops teaching a class there?
Now think realistic and logistic, who and how is it gonna be enforced? If there's going to be an increase price on access, it will affect anyone, including you, teaching or not.

It has been mentioned already, EN isn't just a cave diving spot.

[jitka]

Grrr, No I am not suggesting price increase, I am suggesting NO teaching allowed at the Nest!!! It is not a suitable place for instruction!

[MacLeod]

Grrr, No I am not suggesting price increase, I am suggesting NO teaching allowed at the Nest!!! It is not a suitable place for instruction!

Please explain why you don't feel this site is suited to trimix instruction for someone that is a certified cave diver with considerable experience? Granted, I agree it's not suited for "skills dives" but as an instructed deep trimix dive I don't see an issue.