Help close Eagle's Nest.

[jitka]

Because I have seen "considerable" cave diver experience being 2 Ginnie and 1 Peacock dives; and nothing against Ginnie and Peacock because I love these sites...

[Walter Pickel]

The Eagle's Nest death prior to these (2008/9?) was that of a cave certified diver with "considerable" experience (huge difference between that and cave diver). He had been to the Nest twice prior for TRIMIX training. The Nest is not to be triffled with. It is my opinion that he was just another certified cave diver that felt he was entitled to dive there on that point alone (certification). Too far, too fast or was that simply complacency? Or both?

Don't close anything! What's the point? This isn't a cave diver's only place; it is to be enjoyed by anyone!

[speleodiver]

I guess I'm a little confused. This thread went from a father and newspaper blaming the actual site for killing his son and now there seems to be a turn of the tide pointing the finger at instructors and training as a reason to restrict a sight. Sounds like WKPP methodology to me. I really just do not get how stupidity equates to a site, an instructor or training being the cause of the recent death. There was no training and therefore no instructor so how does one get to this conclusion. As an Instructor Trainer, I can assure you the training sites for Trimix beyond Level 2 or into the advanced level are very limited. Even sites for 1 and 2 or entry level are fairly limited. I personally know there are 2 sites open in Wakulla County that meet the standards but are not easily accessible. Out side that since Ocala closed, it is EN. Sure you can use OG but with the restriction, it is not a site I would use especially with 4 students 2 being intro divers as I have reports of happening there and even then it is only good for level 1. There will always be instructors that should not be teaching just like there are teachers in schools that have no business being there. The big difference is schools are filled with minors who have no say in their teachers. Cave diving has an age limit for a reason. Its called the age of responsibility. Responsibility is a funny thing. Some people have it and others will chase it to their deaths. We know who was chasing it here.

So my question is this, if you can't get the training then why would you need the site at all? I'm sensing a serious lack of knowledge within this post. Perhaps the better way to look at the issue is to look into the training. People trained at EN get hands on experience with an instructor. This gives them experience of the system with a knowledgable peson in the water. Later, they are ready to undertake the dive at EN instead of just jumping in and figuring it out as they go.

I agree with Walter, our sport has become highly publicized with flims like The Cave and Sactum. With that comes all the daredevils and idiots that feel this is the new way to prove their super human abilities. It happens evertime Hollywood produces a film. Fast and the Furious saw a major increase in rice burners hitting the streets. I know this becuase I made big money off kids chasing the rush while dropping 10's of thousands of dollars into cars that cost half as much as the accesories they put in them. Not once did I see anyone blame the streets when they crashed at high speed and died. I took some heat but in the end, studity is only controlled by it's possessor. Which we all know stupid is as stupid does!!

I will agree, there are issues with some instructors. Greed knows no limits when it has control. I can assure you instructors are being handed cards that do not need them. Wasn't long ago I was apporached to conduct a full cave instructor course. The perosn had just finished intro instructor a week eariler. This person was turned down for beginning the course because there simply has to be a time frame pass for development to occur. This DOES NOT happen in a week. Same thing with intro to full cave. I will NOT teach them back to back. Students need time to develop. I suspended and later dropped the same student who was coming up and would have been a very promising cave diver. But the need to collect cards and undertake dives beyond the level of training cut the path off for that person. The last I heard was a complaint about them having 74 intro cave dives and being stuck at intro level. This is the piss poor attitude where the line needs to get drawn. Too often, these new age student seem to think they should just have it. Why earn it like we did in the old days?? I just hope someday the training agencies step up and actually start yanking some cards and stop just talking about it. How much longer do we, the responsible divers and instructors need to preach about the instructor and training issues before a few heads roll and the point that stupidity and greed will not be tolerated. Until this happens, the agencies are no better then the crappy instructors that are produced under their watch. I have personally pointed out several violations and have seen nothing done. Are the agencies really that afraid to be the best agency there is? How well does it look upon an agency when instructors are left in place that leave students in a cave for Edd to save? How long is it before one of these instructors leads a student to death and face a lawsuit in which I may be called to testify? How long does the stupidity, greed and out right irresponsibility get to exist in our sport?

[Superlyte27]

Grrr, No I am not suggesting price increase, I am suggesting NO teaching allowed at the Nest!!! It is not a suitable place for instruction!

Uh? Why? what is your teaching background? What is your diving background? What is your Eagle's Nest background?
Finally, now that we have all that info, what is your reasoning for your position?

[Sly-vester]

I see nothing wrong with doing trimix training there if the divers are already full cave.

[RGU]

Grrr, No I am not suggesting price increase, I am suggesting NO teaching allowed at the Nest!!! It is not a suitable place for instruction!

Really nice!

[Walter Pickel]

What is your diving background? What is your Eagle's Nest background?

That's funny! You are seriously asking Jitka that question?

[kwinter]

The Eagle's Nest death prior to these (2008/9?) was that of a cave certified diver with "considerable" experience (huge difference between that and cave diver). He had been to the Nest twice prior for TRIMIX training. The Nest is not to be triffled with. It is my opinion that he was just another certified cave diver that felt he was entitled to dive there on that point alone (certification). Too far, too fast or was that simply complacency? Or both?

Sorry Walt. I think the 2009 death you're referring to was one of a pair of divers (Woodall/Snowden) who had bombed out of a trimix class that was being taught at EN. Neither of them was cave certified. The instructor caught a lot of flak for teaching there when the students were not certified. And despite his warnings to them to not come back until they were better trained, they found their way back during DEMA and paid the price. You might be confusing it with the case of Bill Bowden who died doing a solo dive (I think) on his Optima after getting back into cave diving following heart surgery. That was 2 years ago this month.

[Walter Pickel]

You are correct and those were the deaths I was referring to (Bird and Colt did the recovery -- I was actually glad I was at a party ant Jitka and Jakub's when Paul called). I misunderstood they were cave certified; apparently just certified enough to do TRIMIX training.

This even better serves the example. So 2 experienced divers that were not cave certified but felt entitled to dive the Nest because their instructor had taken them there to do TRIMIX training. When I did TRIMIX training, we did not go to the Nest; we went to 40 fathom and the ocean...I was cave certified at the time.

[kensuf]

Sorry Walt. I think the 2009 death you're referring to was one of a pair of divers (Woodall/Snowden) who had bombed out of a trimix class that was being taught at EN. Neither of them was cave certified. The instructor caught a lot of flak for teaching there when the students were not certified. And despite his warnings to them to not come back until they were better trained, they found their way back during DEMA and paid the price. You might be confusing it with the case of Bill Bowden who died doing a solo dive (I think) on his Optima after getting back into cave diving following heart surgery. That was 2 years ago this month.

Bill died from DCS. I taught him trimix back in 1997 and one of his dives for the class was in the nest, I was saddened to hear of his passing. We also used 40 fathom and pompano for his dives.