Help close Eagle's Nest.

[cavediver256]

I am not sure gates, fences, more signs, having a sign in process, or shutting Eagles Nest down would have prevented the end result on Christmas Day. If it hadn't been Eagles Nest, it would have been another cave in the area. Their FB accounts prove that they were hitting the sites that had no "scuba police". Lets face it, he had been warned about his behavior from one of his cave diving friends, He and his son parked and walked by the 4ft x 8ft sign located in the parking area, and they swam by another sign once inside the cave at Eagles Nest. Lets not forget the fact, that in the fathers OW classes, whether or not he was warned about over head environments, he was handed a set of dive tables and instructed on how to use them. I am pretty damn sure those tables did not exceed 130ft of depth and he was given instruction on just how deep he should be diving and the dangers involved with breaking any of the rules he had been taught in his OW class. I would also be willing to just about guarantee that other classes were offered (AOW, etc) to advance his skill set. With the father's total disregard for all the warnings, and his lack of good judgement, this could have happened just as easily at Ginnie Springs with the use of a boat, one of those infamous sneak dives at Wakulla during the night, or at Little River where they had posted photographic evidence of having visited in the past.

I have been diving for over 24 years, cave diving for nearly 14 years and I have only visited Eagles Nest twice, both during my trimix training (Thanks again Shirley). Had I heard about this place before? You bet I had !!!! Did I want to dive it??? You bet your ass I did !!!! Was there ever a conversation with my dive buddies about paying a visit and taking a look at the place and maybe swimming around in the big room and not breaking any limits of our training ???? Oh yeah, but that never happened, because we had enough sense to stay within the limits of our training. It all comes back to personal accountability for your own actions, Mr. Spivey failed to understand that part.


If you want to prevent this from ever happening again, you might as well fill every water filled hole you can find with concrete!!!! No gate, no new rule, no law or "scuba police" would have prevented this from happening. Darrien Spivey would have found a way and another place to do exactly what he was doing…. You talk all you want about plaques, gates, new rules, etc etc….. This would not have prevented these deaths, and when another comes along with the same type of hubris, it WILL happen again !!!!! That doesn't mean it is any training agencies fault, nor is it the landowner's fault, the blame should be placed squarely on the shoulders of the individual(s) that ignored the system that is already in place.

[phillip1]

We deal with irresponsibility and stupidity in the DR every day, full cave instructors and a few instructor trainers even all from IANTD taking OW divers on full cave penetrations of over 1000ft. All the people in charge know full well this is going on, in fact they themselves are the ones teaching that this is ok, no one cares and it is only a matter of time before someone gets killed, whats worse it will be 100% because of an unscrupulous dive "guide" not two people on they're own time like in this tragic case.

in this case the blame is 100% with the victims, there is no excuse for not seeking formal training none whatsoever, and even less so in Florida where there is a wealth of information and where cave diving is very popular and all the risks, requirements etc.. are very well known.

These two were irresponsible and arrogant, with a "this cannot happen to me" or "these rules don't apply to me" attitude and unfortunately they paid the price, the very same mentality the "guide" had at Chac Mool last year leading to a a triple fatality. Again all training agencies knew full well about that particular guide and all the others who do this kind of irresponsible guiding yet no one lift a finger, no meaningful sanctions are ever handed down, ever not one.

Back to this recent tragedy, a fact is that if Eagle's Nest were actually closed these two are so irresponsible it would have just made the dive even more appealing to them, imagine diving a closed cave, wow!. Stupidity of this level will never be stopped, however preventing irresponsible dive guides form killing unsuspecting OW clients is possible, if only training agencies would step up to the plate and hand out meaningful sanctions.

We made two warning videos that may or may not help but worth a try

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDrPn56GjDg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOoO5iXWn58

[whodunit68]

Well done...if even one person pays attention and "listens," it was worth it. Curious as to why you actually provided some of the "rules" (guidelines) in the 2nd?


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[phillip1]

Just two different approaches, the one where the face appears could scare people which i think is the whole point, IMO the rules in that one tends to make people concentrate on the screen.
IMO since the industry will do nothing, and will never hand out meaningful sanctions in the case of unscrupulous dive guides (In reality 99.9% of the problem) we as cave divers and I mean all of us have a duty to inform people as much as we can about training, safety etc... even just talking to curious bystanders is important.
I have the opportunity to film caves so the least I could do is try and make a safety message film, others could just talk to people which is just as important, I think it is really up to us the divers to try and make a difference.

You will never stop utter and complete stupidity like in this tragic case, but what about full cave divers, instructor trainers, and cave instructors who do the exact same thing? and worse yet take unsuspecting OW divers with them way past the cavern zone, I find that far worse, yet the training agencies stand by and do NOTHING TO SANCTION ANYONE EVER!!!!

[whodunit68]

Just two different approaches, the one where the face appears could scare people which i think is the whole point, IMO the rules in that one tends to make people concentrate on the screen.
IMO since the industry will do nothing, and will never hand out meaningful sanctions in the case of unscrupulous dive guides (In reality 99.9% of the problem) we as cave divers and I mean all of us have a duty to inform people as much as we can about training, safety etc... even just talking to curious bystanders is important.
I have the opportunity to film caves so the least I could do is try and make a safety message film, others could just talk to people which is just as important, I think it is really up to us the divers to try and make a difference.

You will never stop utter and complete stupidity like in this tragic case, but what about full cave divers, instructor trainers, and cave instructors who do the exact same thing? and worse yet take unsuspecting OW divers with them way past the cavern zone, I find that far worse, yet the training agencies stand by and do NOTHING TO SANCTION ANYONE EVER!!!!

The general point and even the approaches I understood, only curious as to why post some of the rules. I still don't have clarity on that. I suppose I am asking because I would be happy to hear the point of view. I am concerned that some person in one audience sees the rules and thinks if he follows them, he is covered. Maybe it is a silly concern but if there is no benefit, then the potential downside might be greater.
I think what you did with these (note: I deliberately did not say tried to do) is great.


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[kensuf]

One of the problems with this approach is that you have to have a way of updating the information, like the number of hamburgers served at McDonalds. I always thought that wsa a mistake with the Grim Reaper signs in caves that have a number of deaths identified. How outdated is that statistic now?

Ok. "The last unqualified person to die here died on xx date." Update it whenever the body is pulled out.

I agree with the others that said locking the site wouldn't have prevented this. They would have just found another place to go to.

[phillip1]

Ok. "The last unqualified person to die here died on xx date." Update it whenever the body is pulled out.

I agree with the others that said locking the site wouldn't have prevented this. They would have just found another place to go to.

Locking the cave would make zero difference, you cannot prevent stupidity of this magnitude.

[thatcampbellkid]

http://californiadiver.com/why-divers-die/

#6 Stop standing on the bottom.

[phillip1]

The general point and even the approaches I understood, only curious as to why post some of the rules. I still don't have clarity on that. I suppose I am asking because I would be happy to hear the point of view. I am concerned that some person in one audience sees the rules and thinks if he follows them, he is covered. Maybe it is a silly concern but if there is no benefit, then the potential downside might be greater.
I think what you did with these (note: I deliberately did not say tried to do) is great.


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Adding the rules to the second one was from an editing point of view, it kind of forces the viewers attention to focus on the screen more, thus increasing the shock effect.
IMO the best video is Lamar's because it shows people the typical open water diver scenario. I am surprised there has not been any other safety message videos (that I am aware of) other than Lamar's and these.
We are currently working on a video showing the whole accident from the dive shop offering a "cavern" dive to the open water divers getting killed by they're guide, it will be more in the vein of the Lamar video but much shorter and with a focus on open water clients should not trust guides or instructors that go beyond the cave warning signs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVmqK5YZuxM

[NEON]

Adding the rules to the second one was from an editing point of view, it kind of forces the viewers attention to focus on the screen more, thus increasing the shock effect.
IMO the best video is Lamar's because it shows people the typical open water diver scenario. I am surprised there has not been any other safety message videos (that I am aware of) other than Lamar's and these.
We are currently working on a video showing the whole accident from the dive shop offering a "cavern" dive to the open water divers getting killed by they're guide, it will be more in the vein of the Lamar video but much shorter and with a focus on open water clients should not trust guides or instructors that go beyond the cave warning signs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVmqK5YZuxM

About time someone thought of doing this! It is incredible how willing people are to put their lives in the hands of the perceived "experts". It is, sadly, a conceivable outcome of the growing commercialization of the sport.