Help close Eagle's Nest.

[Tegg]

Maybe the myth of gear confiscation for misdemeanor trespass keeps people out of some caves .

Did not work in November of 2008...

[cavediver256]

I agree, Spivey was a special kind of stupid, he and his son were actually doing full cave level dives all over Florida. There was entries on Caveatlas and Facebook photos from Little River. I'm more targeting the OW divers that are diving there because they found direction on a website.

It this day and time of the internet where one can find directions on how to do anything from gear configuration to the directions to Eagles Nest….. Hell you can even order all your gear online without ever showing the qualifications to use it……. About the only thing you can do is stop them at the fill station….. No wait a minute, they can order a compressor too !!!!

My point being, there are always gonna be those that feel like the rules do not apply to them, and those same people will work twice as hard to circumvent the system rather than take the "easy" route and get the training and experience. I will say it again….. I don't think another warning sign, or another sign in list, or a gate will prevent this from happening again…..

[cavediver256]

Nah, I think that is more for the rest of us so that we can look out for the stupids... for our own safety!
None of us would have a problem complying, its the ones we should be on the look out for that would have a problem doing this.

Well I have a problem with protecting the stupid ones…… I say let Darwin have his way with every damn one of them !!!!!

Maybe that was a little over the top, but again, we already have a system in place that worked for thatcampbellkid, curtshu, cavediver256, Kelly Jessop, FW, TJ, SSK, cerich, Rich, Tegg, etc….. but, you're saying is we need a better more foolproof system in place for the dumb ones that want to do what we do???? I would say that if they can't follow the system that we already have, they sure as hell don't need to be underwater, in a cave !!!! Nothing we can do will stop them from trying though

[thatcampbellkid]

Well I have a problem with protecting the stupid ones…… I say let Darwin have his way with every damn one of them !!!!!

Maybe that was a little over the top, but again, we already have a system in place that worked for thatcampbellkid, curtshu, cavediver256, Kelly Jessop, FW, TJ, SSK, cerich, Rich, Tegg, etc….. but, you're saying is we need a better more foolproof system in place for the dumb ones that want to do what we do???? I would say that if they can't follow the system that we already have, they sure as hell don't need to be underwater, in a cave !!!! Nothing we can do will stop them from trying though

Right, I don't have a problem with our system. I'm just saying that the cards would be nice so that WE know who is in the cave. If I drove up to EN and saw Spivey's car with no cards (and if it was a thing to that), I'd know that something isn't quite right and might choose to wait. They're going to do their thing, but I don't want them messing my lines up and screwing with my dive is all I was saying.

[ScubaGypsy]

Maybe the myth of gear confiscation for misdemeanor trespass keeps people out of some caves .

This policy is in place at various forms and states in New England for illegally taking lobsters. This extends in Rhode Island to lobsters that are too small, have eggs, too large, have a notched tail (these types of notches are lobsters added into the environment by companies for various offenses) and taking lobsters out of traps. The confiscation includes cars and/or boats as well as all dive gear. Some New England states are more restricting such as Mass. doesn't allow taking lobsters after sunset and Maine does not allow any divers to take lobsters. RI and Mass. do require state residence to qualify for licenses as well.

More rules will make no difference for folks that are set to do these acts regardless of the risks. However the rules do affect the majority of folks that are responsible and follow them.

And guess what? This still does NOT stop folks from the illegal harvesting of lobsters! The people that do these acts do not follow rules in any aspect of their lives such that regardless of set punishments, these folks will disregard them. This mentality is no different than folks that dive above their training or illegally in restricted areas.

[RN]

The only people that will be affected by closing Eagle's Nest ot diving are those of us that are qualified to dive it. Those who are not qualified will still sneak in there and dive it. It's interesting that the last 4 deaths in Eagle's Nest were people that were nowhere near being qualified to dive that system. And the other two that died there before that had some training but were still diving beyond their training limits. So all 6 deaths in Eagle's Nest since it reopened were by people that should not have been diving there. Yet, there have been hundreds of successful dives there by qualified cave divers since it was reopened.

Another interesting point is a story I saw on the news this past weekend. There have been 24 deaths in the Utah back country caused by avalanches killing skiers. The skiers were qualified to dive the back country slopes. The avalanches didn't care. Does anyone know if there is a local outcry for Utah to close off the back country to skiing? I'm willing to bet there is and we just haven't heard it because it doesn't affect us.

There are all these examples of deaths in other sports, etc, that don't result in closure. That may be so but there probably are outcries for closure for most if not all of those. We're not doing anything other than feeding into this by continuing to discuss it. Rather than waste efforts discussing this with each other here (because I'm pretty sure we want the same thing - for Eagle's Nest to remain open), why not redirect those efforts at the community that does not know how safe cave diving can be with the proper training. The cave diving community does a lot of complaining on the forums but I seldom see anyone out there dealing with the general public and educating them about cave diving. I make it a point to attend events like the Springs Celebration Festival, The Great Suwanee River Cleanup, dive trade shows, and more, in an attempt to educate people about cave diving and why we do it so we can try to change their perceptions of cave divers. I see the same people over and over volunteering for these events. We need more people to do the same.

[caveflyer]

You know that's a good point, that hundreds of safe dives have been accomplished since EN re-opened. Maybe a way to keep it (and other sites) open and to demonstrate just how safe Cave Diving can be would to have some kind of sign in system, either at the site or online, where anyone that has dived there can "publicly" log the dive, could also be done for other systems as well and using either real or pseudo- names. The community could then demonstrate statistically how many people dive safely or how much activity takes place at any one site relative to an "incident". And for the paranoid "freedom loving" naysayers who would't participate for whatever reasons your lack of participation would eventually be statistically accounted for after a certain time by occasional quick and informal comparisons and reviews by other divers. I'm sure somewhere like Ginnie where they know exactly how many cave divers use the location every day could also be used as a statistical comparison.

[Jack Hammer]

You know that's a good point, that hundreds of safe dives have been accomplished since EN re-opened. Maybe a way to keep it (and other sites) open and to demonstrate just how safe Cave Diving can be would to have some kind of sign in system, either at the site or online, where anyone that has dived there can "publicly" log the dive, could also be done for other systems as well and using either real or pseudo- names. The community could then demonstrate statistically how many people dive safely or how much activity takes place at any one site relative to an "incident". And for the paranoid "freedom loving" naysayers who would't participate for whatever reasons your lack of participation would eventually be statistically accounted for after a certain time by occasional quick and informal comparisons and reviews by other divers. I'm sure somewhere like Ginnie where they know exactly how many cave divers use the location every day could also be used as a statistical comparison.

I think the reality of putting a name board up at cave diving sights is even more unqualified f**ktards will now want to get their name on it for all can see how "hard core" they are...

Safely sent from behind my keyboard using Tapatalk 2

[JCGoodwin]

I am sorry that these two expired and even more they did it at Eagles Nest.
It is only obvious that the father had little regard for any adherence to any of the rules of scuba.
Would you not think other places would be better suited for a UNTRAINED OW diver "son" and a UNTRAINED Cave Diver but OW diver "dad"?
I am sorry but these mislead folks were demonstrating only one more bad choice in a chain of many others that they had already survived.
I am not trying to be insensitive but this whole talk of closure is way off base.
More rules are you kidding me?
It is 2013 and we are still battling ignorance I agree that some people are not teachable and are simply waiting for Darwin to declare them officially out of the gene pool.

Now I will still feel for the families of the lost but I will not nor agree with any more regulation or rules.
You can not fix this problem with that.

JCG

[phillip1]

It this day and time of the internet where one can find directions on how to do anything from gear configuration to the directions to Eagles Nest….. Hell you can even order all your gear online without ever showing the qualifications to use it……. About the only thing you can do is stop them at the fill station….. No wait a minute, they can order a compressor too !!!!

My point being, there are always gonna be those that feel like the rules do not apply to them, and those same people will work twice as hard to circumvent the system rather than take the "easy" route and get the training and experience. I will say it again….. I don't think another warning sign, or another sign in list, or a gate will prevent this from happening again…..

I agree, nothing will stop stupidity of this magnitude, however I will also add, what about the full cave instructors from all training agencies who take what is supposed to be a cavern guided dive way into the cave? what in your opinion could be done about them? is that not even worse? IMO it would be great if training agencies would revoke those instructors licenses immediately it has never happened to my knowledge even when caught red handed (I know from personal experience) and that my fellow cave divers is 99.9% of the problem right there.