Training Time Expirations on certificates: Too restrictive or Just Right?

[jj1987]

I talked to two people that switched to NAUI because NSS apprentice expires. Only in cave diving does a cert expire. This rushes individuals to complete full cave before it cost more (by having to re-cert). So now you have bunches of full cave divers only been in caves for two years. Your inviting what you have out there. And having doubles expire at intro is ridiculous. Now I have to go buy a single harness because some trip operator said my doubles expired?

There are almost no differences between Cave 1 and full cave (more jumps and limited deco allowed, but that's it). I don't really understand how someone can not be ready for full cave, but be ready for Cave 1 through NAUI.

[corvettejoe]

This is why I went with agencies that didn't expire their Intro/Cave1 cards. My instructors/mentors advised me at the time I got mine not to be in any rush because there is a LOT of cave to see on gold line and within intro/cave1 limits alone. Miles and miles of it.

They all said once I ran out of gold line or wanted to go farther in the cave and further in my training then I could take the next step.

I was able to do a LOT of diving within these limits and hone my skill before I wanted to take the next course.

I remembered specifically asking about the expiration to make sure my cards wouldn't have those as at the time I had planned to stay Intro/Cave1 for a while before continuing on.

[syntaxerrorsix]

This card?

Nope, this one.

[Jim Wyatt]

When an NSS-CDS Basic Cave card expires it is a simple process to renew. I do it by going on one cave dive and I don't recall ever charging any fee for this. I feel sure any NSS-CDS instructor would be glad to help Basic cave divers renew their certification is the same manner.

CorvetteJoe -- Clearly it would not have been a problem for you since you dive caves a LOT and have access to instructors who are willing to dive with you.

There is/was nothing dastardly, financial or Machiavellian regarding the decision to have these cards expire at the end of 18 months, as some have suggested.

[rddvet]

I have heard of this too.

If I am interpreting the NAUI standards for Cave I correctly it "certifies" cave divers to the same level as the NSS-CDS does at the Apprentice level requiring two less training dives.

I can understand why this type training is appealing to some divers.

We chose NAUI solely because of the positive relationship we had with the instructor and the quality of training he provides. We had no clue the difference in number of dives. It really didn't matter. If we sucked on the dives we did he would have failed us without a second thought regardless of if we did two more or two less dives. I wonder if some of the concerns lately over training has to do with the multilevel approach to training (cavern/intro, apprentice, full) as one instructor may let things slide thinking the problem will be fixed in the next course. I think all students should have an instructor that will fail them without a second thought.

We later learned the pros to the NAUI cert which are more leniency with performing jumps and gas reserves and no expiration. We are the type of divers that are in no hurry to jump certs. We can enjoy great diving with the cave1 cert and not feel pressure to move up. This in turn builds stronger skill sets and experience. With my work schedule and my want to be exceptionally proficient as opposed to racking up certs, the NAUI system worked for us. The other side of the coin is that there are zero to heros that are immediately allowed to perform minorly complex navigation(2 jumps without a circuit) and to dive to thirds. That could lead to potential problems, but I doubt it has so far. I know of several people that had to dive to 1/6s due to their cert that pushed the speed that they moved through their certs just so they could dive thirds like their dive buddies, which isn't doing them any positive service.

[Seanmeboy]

I have one CDS card that says Intro 2011 and one that says Basic 2012. Are they not the same thing? Intro says restricted to single cylinder with no expiration. The Basic card says expires in 18 months perhaps this is just the doubles portion, it does not specify. I don't know now. My apprentice card was paper and I was told it expires in one year. If I do not get full cave in 18 months from basic or one year from apprentice does that mean I will go back two steps -be back to single cylinder intro after that time? I understand that your and all instructors will work with you. I never want to go back to 1/6 doubles or single though. Push comes to shove I want to dive at the level I am certified at. Its not like I am going to forget how to attach my tanks to me or do a jump or two.

[Jim Wyatt]

I have one CDS card that says Intro 2011 and one that says Basic 2012. Are they not the same thing? Intro says restricted to single cylinder with no expiration. The Basic card says expires in 18 months perhaps this is just the doubles portion, it does not specify. I don't know now. My apprentice card was paper and I was told it expires in one year. If I do not get full cave in 18 months from basic or one year from apprentice does that mean I will go back two steps -be back to single cylinder intro after that time? I understand that your and all instructors will work with you. I never want to go back to 1/6 doubles or single though. Push comes to shove I want to dive at the level I am certified at. Its not like I am going to forget how to attach my tanks to me or do a jump or two.

• You will never have to dive single tanks again, unless you want to.
• Intro is by definition a single tank cert. Never expires.
• Basic by definition is for double tanks. Expires after 18 months.
• Apprentice expires after 18 months.

[gschaut]

Up here in Buffalo, we don't have open water to dive in for about 4-5 months of winter.

I always liked practicing in the shallow end of the pool, (while my local shop was running dive classes in the deep end).

Working eyes closed, or mask off in the shallow end without touching the bottom or surface was good practice for cave diving. Running reels between shot bags, S-drill, deploying and stowing equipment, and just plain frog kicking.

I try to get a few days of pool time in before each dive vacation to brush "a bit" of the rust off my skill level.

[Jax]

I just love how this went from a discussion on expiration to the How-What-When-Where of skills practice.

Yes, I do all my skills in other water. Yes, Forrest, there is OW in Arizona; they are either cement ponds or no / low vis mudholes.

When I say, IMO, I am not ready for apprentice, please understand that is IN MY OPINION. It is not about what others think. I have my own high standards for what / where I should be. This includes having dived different cave environments, which I have not - IMO.

*I think* (warning, inexperienced newbie opinion) that if one meets someone with a full cave card, one has a certain level of expectation of abilities. I want to NOT be the person that others think: How the hell did that person get full cave?

Clearer?

[DL348]

I have heard of this too.

If I am interpreting the NAUI standards for Cave I correctly it "certifies" cave divers to the same level as the NSS-CDS does at the Apprentice level requiring two less training dives.

I can understand why this type training is appealing to some divers.

Then I believe you are interpreting NAUI standards incorrectly. NAUI Cave 1 is not the same as Apprentice through the NSS-CDS. It probably lies somewhere "in between" the NSS-CDS intro. and apprentice levels, and requires a minimum of 10 dives in at least 3 different systems. NAUI's cave programs were not designed to "mirror" or equal certifications through other agencies such as the CDS or the NACD.

NAUI Cave 1 allows 1/3s and 2 navigational decisions but no deco. Apprentice allows limited deco. I think why some divers choose to get certified through NAUI is because their certs. do not expire and that they don't want to feel rushed to move onto the next training/certification level.

Someone could easily make the argument that NAUI has higher standards with regards to their cave training than other agencies. For example, NAUI requires AN/DP, at least 100 logged dives, and at least 20 logged cave dives at the Cave 1 level as prerequisites in order to enroll in their Cave 2 class. I dont believe the NSS-CDS has these requirements, as per standards since i know a few people who went straight from cavern through full cave with the CDS (zero to hero).