Training Time Expirations on certificates: Too restrictive or Just Right?

[a64pilot]

For whatever it's worth, if your learning to fly, have taken and passed your written, I believe you have one year to complete training before your written expires and you have to re-take it. It's been a while, but that's how I remember it anyway.
Once you have your license, if it's been 90 or more days since you have flown, your required to make three take-offs and landings before your allowed to carry passengers.
I believe if you just want to stay a student pilot and fly around locally by yourself, your license expires periodically and you have to be re-certified by an instructor.
I agree with the expiring certificates, if nothing else it's a motivator to receive a higher level of training and not stagnate at a lower level.
Long ago when I graduated from flight school, I was told that all I had was a license to learn, now go out and learn. I saw my full cave card as the same, I'm still learning, and nowhere near where I want to be proficiency wise, but I'm getting better

Jax,
You don't want William to be full cave before you are, do you?

[argyris]

Then I believe you are interpreting NAUI standards incorrectly. NAUI Cave 1 is not the same as Apprentice through the NSS-CDS. It probably lies somewhere "in between" the NSS-CDS intro. and apprentice levels, and requires a minimum of 10 dives in at least 3 different systems. NAUI's cave programs were not designed to "mirror" or equal certifications through other agencies such as the CDS or the NACD.

NAUI Cave 1 allows 1/3s and 2 navigational decisions but no deco. Apprentice allows limited deco. I think why some divers choose to get certified through NAUI is because their certs. do not expire and that they don't want to feel rushed to move onto the next training/certification level.

Someone could easily make the argument that NAUI has higher standards with regards to their cave training than other agencies. For example, NAUI requires AN/DP, at least 100 logged dives, and at least 20 logged cave dives at the Cave 1 level as prerequisites in order to enroll in their Cave 2 class. I dont believe the NSS-CDS has these requirements, as per standards since i know a few people who went straight from cavern through full cave with the CDS (zero to hero).

NAUI Cave is a different approach than NSS-CDS, NACD and the rest traditional cave programms. NAUI programs is a more GUE alike program. Which mean more DIRish; Hogarthian/NTEC, helicopter turns, back finning, etc.

NAUI Cave II is also something different: It is like a traditional Full Cave + a stage diving program. So it somethink more than full cave. Thats why they have request these request for CAVEII.

Cave diving from zero to hero is in my opinion for the avid consumer - student, not for the conservationalist cave diver. If someone cant dive with proper techniques to protect the cave should not dive at all there. Thats why it is important to take time, build experience and enjoy the underwater cave and progress naturaly. Cave diving should not be a fast food recreational activity, for agressive weekend wariors. Again its only my opininon.

[Jim Wyatt]

NAUI requires AN/DP

Should both of those classes be required for diving in shallow caves, for example in Mexico where the water is 40 feet deep and everyone dives on air?

[JamesK]

I see absolutely no problem with expiration dates. Also find it foolish that one would think they have to finish cave before they are ready for fear of their card expiring. I was an apprentice diver for almost a year and a half. I simply went on another dive with my instructor and they re-signed me off for another apprentice card. Then when I felt I was fully ready I continued my training.

I personally feel that if you cannot find a way to practice your skills and continue to learn and hone your skills and maybe cave diving is not for you.

[vicp]

For whatever it's worth, if your learning to fly, have taken and passed your written, I believe you have one year to complete training before your written expires and you have to re-take it. It's been a while, but that's how I remember it anyway.
Once you have your license, if it's been 90 or more days since you have flown, your required to make three take-offs and landings before your allowed to carry passengers.
I believe if you just want to stay a student pilot and fly around locally by yourself, your license expires periodically and you have to be re-certified by an instructor.
I agree with the expiring certificates, if nothing else it's a motivator to receive a higher level of training and not stagnate at a lower level.
Long ago when I graduated from flight school, I was told that all I had was a license to learn, now go out and learn. I saw my full cave card as the same, I'm still learning, and nowhere near where I want to be proficiency wise, but I'm getting better

Once you do get your airman's license (private, commercial, ATP, etc.) it NEVER expires (flight instructor does need to be renewed every two years), but there are certain currency requirements for certain operations. Then again, you are operating in a heavily used airspace system with other traffic and may be carrying passengers that are not licensed and can not jump in and take over the controls in case you screw up or die. In a cave you are primarily responsible for yourself. You may impact a team member, but they should be equally trained and responsible. This is quite different from the responsibility that an aircraft pilot assumes. Also, airman licensing has legal status while cave ratings do not (maybe entrance to some parks).

Expiring cave ratings are just a way to fuel the card mill and to try to limit liability in some cases. Once a diver is trained (with or without a card since a card does not necessarily indicate the quality or completeness of training), it IS the person's responsibility to know the limits of their abilities with regards to currency of skills, health, environmental factors and to operate within those limits.

[DL348]

Should both of those classes be required for diving in shallow caves, for example in Mexico where the water is 40 feet deep and everyone dives on air?

My opinion really isn't all that important but in your specific example, it certainly wouldn't hurt to have AN/DP under your belt before enrolling in a Full Cave/Naui Cave 2 class regardless of where it's located (Mexico vs. Florida, etc.). I will say this though, German Yanez requires Adv. Nitrox and Deco. Procedures certs. as prerequsites before taking a Full cave class with him. He's located down in the Yucatan Peninsula/Cozumel area and is apparently in agreement with NAUI as far as requiring these 2 courses before someone progresses with their cave training.

I believe he is a NSS-CDS instructor also and might know a thing or two about cave diving in Mexico.

[Jax]

Jax,
You don't want William to be full cave before you are, do you?

I will congratulate him happily!

I do not judge myself against others, only against the standards as set by others, and that set by me.

[mag3]

Nope, this one.

This appears to be something new. When I was certified with "Double Cylinders - Intro to Cave" (07/2010), I was issued a laminated paper card (I have it in front me right now) that has an expiration date of 1 year after the date of certification. The only "permanent" plastic cards I have are "Cavern" and "Full Cave."

Is there no expiry date on the back of this card?

[jj1987]

Should both of those classes be required for diving in shallow caves, for example in Mexico where the water is 40 feet deep and everyone dives on air?

I had to do deco on my last dive in Mexico diving 32% at Jailhouse. I don't know that it's a terrible idea to require it, or include a short lecture in Full Cave about basic, o2 deco.

[Jim Wyatt]

I don't know that it's a terrible idea to require it, or include a short lecture in Full Cave about basic, o2 deco.

Agreed 100%. I do it and a lot of other CDS instructors do it too.