Interesting conversation at Manatee (with a new Ranger)

[jason]

I'll go you one further. In the grand scheme of things even breaking formations or rubbing off goethite isn't really damage to the resource. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for such things at all.
Brian

By law (Florida Cave Protection act), breaking formations (and goethite is a formation) is damage. Disturbing "normal" (non-laminated clay banks, etc.) sediments is generally not considered damage. It is important to note, however, that damage to caves is permissible with the consent of the land owner and if you own a cave, you're typically able to do whatever you want with it. Now, if the park service has determined that fin prints are damage (I wasn't aware that they did) - then that is their right. There are number of restrictions in national parks with dry caves that I disagree with, but I abide by those restrictions to gain access for research.

I would imagine that part of the reason the park emphasizes contact related issues with caves is because they do not have the authority or budget to control things like groundwater withdraws and pollution that occur outside of park boundaries.

Kelly, the main NSS has a lot of cave management protocols, books and manuals for dry caves and even has annual symposium on cave management. Does anything like this exist for underwater caves?

[Kelly Jessop]

By law (Florida Cave Protection act), breaking formations (and goethite is a formation) is damage. Disturbing "normal" (non-laminated clay banks, etc.) sediments is generally not considered damage. It is important to note, however, that damage to caves is permissible with the consent of the land owner and if you own a cave, you're typically able to do whatever you want with it. Now, if the park service has determined that fin prints are damage (I wasn't aware that they did) - then that is their right. There are number of restrictions in national parks with dry caves that I disagree with, but I abide by those restrictions to gain access for research.

I would imagine that part of the reason the park emphasizes contact related issues with caves is because they do not have the authority or budget to control things like groundwater withdraws and pollution that occur outside of park boundaries.


Kelly, the main NSS has a lot of cave management protocols, books and manuals for dry caves and even has annual symposium on cave management. Does anything like this exist for underwater caves?

You are right Florida statute 810.13 calls breaking of formations as cave vandalism and is against the law.

The CDS is a section of the NSS,so it follows the same rules. The CDS conservation statement is in line with the NSS.

[jason]

The CDS is a section of the NSS, so it follows the same rules. The CDS conservation statement is in line with the NSS.

What I was getting at was that management protocols (as opposed to conversation statements) for underwater caves would have a number of unique aspects that are not applicable to dry caves. For example, nobody bats an eye at walking through the mud in a dry cave but the idea of making fin or hand prints in underwater caves is anathema. Dry cave management plans vary substantially by region due to inherent differences in cave geology and hydrology. I was just wondering to what extent similar work had been done in underwater caves. Does the CDS have a presence at the annual cave management workshop?

[SlowDiver]

Ripely I think you and I are on the same page when it comes to Solo Diving. I will be at Jackson Blue this Thursday doing my usual solo dive. Would go to Peacock more if able to dive solo but since the State says NO Solo diving at that park there are too many other places that I can dive. (When they are not flooded)

Aubrey Fred Summerlin aka. SlowDiver


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[ARY]

If DPV's aren't allowed for good, I'll never dive Manatee again. I hope this was a misinformed employee.

I agree. For me it is just a reminder of a reason to keep a mouth shut about caves on any state property so they would not get uniformed state "protection". I would not recommend my friends to visit it either from now on. The place is far away from scuba airfill stations so for me the main excuse to burn gasoline was a long and safe scooter ride against strong current. For swim dives there are much prettier caves out there so why bother - vacation time is short.

I wish most of these "state parks" dive holes could be taken by local authorities who really recognize the value of them for people and local economy. State as owner is not much better than national gov bureaucrats. At the time of a news I was also sorry to hear that LR is transferring to State - too bad that county cannot bear the financial burden.

On another topic - restriction of solo diving is another BS that we have to take with state ownership. I would not be surprised if soon Manatee could dive with DPV but only with approved guide system or with special "research" permit.

[Sludge]

if I get off work,I don't want to stay an 1 1/2 hours extra due to carelessness on the part of othere.

Kelly, I consider you the greatest ambassador the caves have, but it clearly says on the Peacock Springs State Park website, "The park is open from 8:00 a.m. until sundown, 365 days a year." If they don't want to keep a ranger there past their suppertime, they need to change their official policy.

And again, who's going to pay?

Not me. I quit buying an annual pass right after I drove down from Georgia and got there around 1pm, expecting to make two dives. The ranger on duty told me we couldn't make the second dive (which would have had us out of the park well before sundown) because he had to be home for supper.

[stickydeco]

. . . I would not recommend my friends to visit it either from now on. The place is far away from scuba airfill stations so for me the main excuse to burn gasoline was a long and safe scooter ride against strong current. For swim dives there are much prettier caves out there so why bother.

Right on Ary! That place is a dump. It sucks in just about every aspect. AFAIC they could do a Morrison Spring job at all entrances and the world would be better off.

As an avid scooter driver myself I hate to say this, but all you have to do is dive JB to see that scooters in the hands of some do cause damage, back about 3000 ft., there is the huge furrow from I assume a run-away scooter. I don't know anything about how it happened, perhaps it was unavoidable.

Ah yes, The INFAMOUS Butler Trench. Having been there that day, that was the best silt-out I've ever been in. Closed the cave for at least 2 days. I tried to go back to the Old Posts section but it was not working for me. Her "story" is an absolute hoot to read.

[Benthic]

Brian,

You are wise beyond you years, Its a pleasure to read such a rational post.

Most people that condemn those that make the inconsequential mistake in a cave are really just sad people that need to feel good about themselves, they subscribe to the extreme "green" view thats based on anything but science, take pity on them, they need it.

JOnathan

I appreciate the compliment Jonathan, but I fear you may have misunderstood me. I AM one of those people who condemns those that leave marks in a cave. Proper trim an buoyancy control are basic skills that are required for cave diving and those who leave fin marks and hand prints should be ashamed of themselves. I realize that no one is perfect, and that includes me. But I've done my best to repair what marks I've made and not make any in the future.

My point here is that marks and even broken rocks do not take away from the real health of the aquifer, which is where the State's concern should lie. Not with inconsequential fin marks. Leave that for the self-policing of the cave diving community (which, I know, is a whole separate conversation). As Kelly pointed out, that's our responsibility. Unfortunately, the State seems to focus on that rather than the larger picture of the health of the aquifer. Thus we have laws like FS 810.13, rules about when and where we might use DPVs, and state parks that don't allow cave diving. And the state that can claim that it "did something". It sure would be nice if they would take some real action to protect the things that are really important, and if we'd take care of the more minor details by policing ourselves like we're supposed to.

Brian

[Jont]

I appreciate the compliment Jonathan, but I fear you may have misunderstood me. I AM one of those people who condemns those that leave marks in a cave. Proper trim an buoyancy control are basic skills that are required for cave diving and those who leave fin marks and hand prints should be ashamed of themselves. I realize that no one is perfect, and that includes me. But I've done my best to repair what marks I've made and not make any in the future.

My point here is that marks and even broken rocks do not take away from the real health of the aquifer, which is where the State's concern should lie. Not with inconsequential fin marks. Leave that for the self-policing of the cave diving community (which, I know, is a whole separate conversation). As Kelly pointed out, that's our responsibility. Unfortunately, the State seems to focus on that rather than the larger picture of the health of the aquifer. Thus we have laws like FS 810.13, rules about when and where we might use DPVs, and state parks that don't allow cave diving. And the state that can claim that it "did something". It sure would be nice if they would take some real action to protect the things that are really important, and if we'd take care of the more minor details by policing ourselves like we're supposed to.

Brian

I didn't misunderstand you at all, I agree with the position and would support the prosecution of any vandal, what I like about your post is that you put things in perspective. I've seen a lot of people condemn those that have made mistakes especially during training, the reality is its not a capital offense, but just because its not doesn't mean that we should be careless and certainly not destructive.

Things are quite polarized these days, look at journalism, we're loosing sight of reality and rationality.

Although I think those that condemn other for a legitimate mistake deserve a good old fashioned Brooklyn beating.

[Wizard]

Right on Ary! That place is a dump. It sucks in just about every aspect. AFAIC they could do a Morrison Spring job at all entrances and the world would be better off.



Ah yes, The INFAMOUS Butler Trench. Having been there that day, that was the best silt-out I've ever been in. Closed the cave for at least 2 days. I tried to go back to the Old Posts section but it was not working for me. Her "story" is an absolute hoot to read.

Uncle Jack is back in the house! You kill me partner!!

On a serious note, (yes I can still do that) many thanks Kelly. If it weren't for you half of Florida would be closed off from us.