Repairing Caves

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Bingo bango x3

[RN]

Simply having solid instructors who don't just hand out cave cards would solve the problem.

You are addressing the symptom by adding a "new" class. If the instructors are crap, adding a class just pads the wallet and does nothing for the quality of student.

Exactly!

1) It wasn't a statement, it was a question.

2) Nowhere did she say she was in a controlled environment throughout her training and nowhere did I make such an inference, please re-read slowly, I make this mistake a lot as well.

1) I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Yes, I stated it's not a very good statement, meaning you can't just answer yes to it. I went on to answer your question. Maybe you should re-read my response slowly...

2) It seemed that this was implied in your statement.

[DA Aquamaster]

I think all y'all are missing the point. Lynn's observation on the problem of not having a lead in class for buoyancy, trim, configuration, etc prior to cavern is separate from having instructors who hand out c cards.

There's room for both, and even if all instructors maintained adequate standards and failed all students who did not meet the standards we'd still have issues.

1) If a diver lacked the buoyancy and trim skills to enter a cavern and dive without beating it up, then conceivably the entire "cavern" class they are supposed to be taking - and will in fact fail - will happen in the basin. With that approach you are in effect creating a de facto lead in class that the person has to pass before taking an actual cavern class.

2) The problem with doing it that way is that the instructor now has an impossible job managing expectations. Student dissatisfaction will be high as they won't feel they got what they paid for and the odds are the instructor will lose the student to someone else. Which is why instructors are extremely unlikely to keep even a roto tiller out of a cavern and the best we can hope for is that they keep it somewhere like the Ginnie ball room where damage is unlikely and would go un noticed.

It makes a lot more sense to just approach it head on with a lead in class. Unlike Fundies, it does not have to be mandatory but rather could be something that a prospective cave student could knock out with demonstrated ability.

[JCGoodwin]

Interesting thread that has spun into a great conversation.
The things you see in OG are horrible representing the divers worst judgement.
The last time I dove there I was saddened by the lack of respect for the cave.
Even before beginning on my cave training I clearly understood RESPECT FOR PROPERTY AND ENVIRONMENT.

Does the current cave instructional materials not cover this?
Are instructors not reinforcing this ideal?
The three Tech. instructors I have trained with ALL made it very clear failure to maintain proper trim and buoyancy was a prerequisite for training.

Making contact with fragile cave formations is not acceptable!
Training areas chosen by instructors are chosen for a reason for the safety of the student and the cave.
If you are a prospective student it is YOUR responsibility to have the solid foundation of proper buoyancy / trim.
If you are the instructor is is YOUR responsibility to evaluate your prospective student and either agree to train them or send them back for skill mastery.

Do students make mistakes? That is what training is for.
Unfortunately to the cave, damage is damage regardless of the motive.
What has become the normal training caves bear the scars of many careless or accidental contacts.
It is easy to understand why PRIVATE caves are fiercely guarded.

While we are trapped up hear in Yankee land we train in a local quarry the things witnessed this season have brought me to a painful conclusion that some divers are just idiots.
You can not reason with them they are destroyers of all environments that many of us treasure even the crappy quarry ones!
We are accused of being intolerant AXXHOLES but when we try to be nice we are ignored.

Jont this is not a personal attach I have never dove with you but I will ask you to be very honest with yourself when accessing your buoyancy and trim.
I can promise you that even if you have perfect skills your instructor will find a nick in your armor.
That is what he or she is supposed to do.
My plea not to just you but all divers RESPECT whatever environment you are diving in.

JCG

[Tegg]

I think all y'all are missing the point. Lynn's observation on the problem of not having a lead in class for buoyancy, trim, configuration, etc prior to cavern is separate from having instructors who hand out c cards.

There's room for both, and even if all instructors maintained adequate standards and failed all students who did not meet the standards we'd still have issues.

1) If a diver lacked the buoyancy and trim skills to enter a cavern and dive without beating it up, then conceivably the entire "cavern" class they are supposed to be taking - and will in fact fail - will happen in the basin. With that approach you are in effect creating a de facto lead in class that the person has to pass before taking an actual cavern class.

2) The problem with doing it that way is that the instructor now has an impossible job managing expectations. Student dissatisfaction will be high as they won't feel they got what they paid for and the odds are the instructor will lose the student to someone else. Which is why instructors are extremely unlikely to keep even a roto tiller out of a cavern and the best we can hope for is that they keep it somewhere like the Ginnie ball room where damage is unlikely and would go un noticed.

It makes a lot more sense to just approach it head on with a lead in class. Unlike Fundies, it does not have to be mandatory but rather could be something that a prospective cave student could knock out with demonstrated ability.

Then maybe the student wasn't ready for the cavern class....

A good instructor will be able to tell if a student sucks at buoyancy on the first dive of the cavern class. Back on my first dive in Orange Grove with my cave instructor for the cavern class, he told one student to go home and come back when they were more experienced and proficient with their buoyancy.

How many instructors today would do that?

Most OW organizations ALREADY have a "Peak Buoyancy" class or equivalent where a student is taught how to have proper buoyancy and trim. If the student has issues with their skills they can take this class from a good quality instructor and be more prepared for Cavern.

[MORGAN]

A good instructor will be able to tell if a student sucks at buoyancy on the first dive of the cavern class. Back on my first dive in Orange Grove with my cave instructor for the cavern class, he told one student to go home and come back when they were more experienced and proficient with their buoyancy.

How many instructors today would do that?

I'd like to think that all of them would, but I guess that's not necessarily the case.

Both of my cave instructors (Michael O'Leary, Intro - Full, 2005 & 2006, and Paul Heinerth, sidemount, 2010) made it clear up front that good bouyancy and trim were non-negotiable prerequisites to start classes. I have on two occasions seen Michael O'Leary give cavern students the choice of either getting a refund or coming back when their skills were adequate to continue training. I'd guess that the majority of cave instructors have similar standards, but there are always outliers in any group.

[Greenwood_60]

Then maybe the student wasn't ready for the cavern class....

A good instructor will be able to tell if a student sucks at buoyancy on the first dive of the cavern class. Back on my first dive in Orange Grove with my cave instructor for the cavern class, he told one student to go home and come back when they were more experienced and proficient with their buoyancy.

I think this comes down to what the purpose of the course is. Are you there for certification, or for training? When Giselle and I took Cavern, we were by no means ready for Cavern certification. We were, however, both ready for cavern training. Our instructor planned class in "OW caverns". Places where we should not leave any noticeable damage, mainly because they have OW diver rolling around on the floor all day. These places are sacrificial. The owners have decided damage to the cave is worth $$ they charge for entry. We learned a lot those first 4 days. For me Cavern/Intro were a learning experience, while Apprentice was about demonstrating competency.

I think the only time a diver should be turned away from a Cavern class is if the group is a horrible mismatch of diver's skill. Otherwise the instructor should spend that time teaching the skills that need to be taught, regardless of whether it will end with certification.

[gschaut]

I think this comes down to what the purpose of the course is. Are you there for certification, or for training? When Giselle and I took Cavern, we were by no means ready for Cavern certification. We were, however, both ready for cavern training. Our instructor planned class in "OW caverns". Places where we should not leave any noticeable damage, mainly because they have OW diver rolling around on the floor all day. These places are sacrificial. The owners have decided damage to the cave is worth $$ they charge for entry. We learned a lot those first 4 days. For me Cavern/Intro were a learning experience, while Apprentice was about demonstrating competency.

I think the only time a diver should be turned away from a Cavern class is if the group is a horrible mismatch of diver's skill. Otherwise the instructor should spend that time teaching the skills that need to be taught, regardless of whether it will end with certification.

I don't think it's possible to "know" what you need to learn prior to Cavern course. My first instructor made sure that I knew that perfect buoyancy and trim were required prior to Cavern course. And I "thought" that my skills were up to par. And they were, by OW standards.

What I learned MOST from my cavern course (see "unknowing-incompetent") was how bad a klutz, how LACKING my skills were, and what I needed to practice and improve on before continuing in my training. No books, videos, pool lessons, open water diving can prepare you for cave training. That's what the Cavern Course is (in my opinion). It's your wake up call. The job of a Cavern Course is to demonstrate to you what skills WILL BE required of you, where you stand, and how much you need to work on.

Cavern course is designed to take an Unknowing-Incompetent diver, and teach him to be a Knowing-Incompetent diver. If the instructor can help improve the student's skills- all the much better. But the primary need is to educate the student into how much different the overhead environment is to OW.

Just my $.02

[Walter Pickel]

"They" would need a speaker/moderator, are you volunteering?

Isn't is already in "their" mission statement(s)?

[DA Aquamaster]

Then maybe the student wasn't ready for the cavern class....

A good instructor will be able to tell if a student sucks at buoyancy on the first dive of the cavern class. Back on my first dive in Orange Grove with my cave instructor for the cavern class, he told one student to go home and come back when they were more experienced and proficient with their buoyancy.

How many instructors today would do that?

Most OW organizations ALREADY have a "Peak Buoyancy" class or equivalent where a student is taught how to have proper buoyancy and trim. If the student has issues with their skills they can take this class from a good quality instructor and be more prepared for Cavern.

I encountered a peak performance class during a surface interval last summer at a local quarry and it was notable for the fact that it was the first and only time I've encountered such a class that actually taught things in a manner that was cavern/cave oriented. After he was done with the lecture I commented on that to the instructor and commended him for teaching to that level. The reality of what is taught in a peak performance buoyancy class is often far less than that.

That's why it might make sense for NACD, NSS-CDS etc to consider a similar course, but taught by cavern and cave instructors with that focus in mind.

I think this was more or less what Jason describes as what he needed when he got into diving and the instructor accommodated by using OW caverns, such as the Ginnie ball room. But the reality here, as alluded to in Jason's narrative is that it is a short step from viewing the ballroom as a sacrificial cavern to regarding caverns at JB, the devil's ear, P1, Orange Grove, etc as being sacrificial as well.

It makes more sense to have a dedicated course that teaches those skills - but outside any cavern, reinforcing the concept that they are non-negotiable pre-requsites for starting a cavern class.