Repairing Caves

[LCF]

You know, one of the things I think would help would be if all agencies required a precursor class to cave training, something along the lines of GUE's Fundamentals class, or UTD's Overhead Protocols. There is no reason why good buoyancy and trim, and tolerance for task loading, needs to be learned in a cave, and it's hard on the cave. When I did my Cave 1 class in MX, the only time any of us touched the bottom (or anything else) was during the lost line drill, which is done, as Rob describes, in an area of deep silt and broken limestone, with no formations. (And my instructor took us about 15 feet off the line, let us STUDY where we were and what the passage was like and where the line was, and then put us in the dark. It took me 14 minutes to find the line, and my buddy took 12; it was profoundly instructive, simply because we WEREN'T spun around or otherwise disoriented. Even with plenty of warning and time to prepare, we found it hard -- THAT's how you impress students with how dangerous it is to lose the line.) Even in my Cave 2, where we didn't do very well (and yes, I didn't pass it) the only time we touched the bottom was when I kicked off my boot and fin in Twin and put my hands in the silt because I totally lost my balance. I felt awful about that damage, and tried to find someone to fix it for me. I was very pleased, the next time I dove there, to see that the marks were gone.

At any rate, requiring cave-quality buoyancy BEFORE taking people into caves would help a lot, I think.

[Jont]

You know, one of the things I think would help would be if all agencies required a precursor class to cave training, something along the lines of GUE's Fundamentals class, or UTD's Overhead Protocols. There is no reason why good buoyancy and trim, and tolerance for task loading, needs to be learned in a cave, and it's hard on the cave. When I did my Cave 1 class in MX, the only time any of us touched the bottom (or anything else) was during the lost line drill, which is done, as Rob describes, in an area of deep silt and broken limestone, with no formations. (And my instructor took us about 15 feet off the line, let us STUDY where we were and what the passage was like and where the line was, and then put us in the dark. It took me 14 minutes to find the line, and my buddy took 12; it was profoundly instructive, simply because we WEREN'T spun around or otherwise disoriented. Even with plenty of warning and time to prepare, we found it hard -- THAT's how you impress students with how dangerous it is to lose the line.) Even in my Cave 2, where we didn't do very well (and yes, I didn't pass it) the only time we touched the bottom was when I kicked off my boot and fin in Twin and put my hands in the silt because I totally lost my balance. I felt awful about that damage, and tried to find someone to fix it for me. I was very pleased, the next time I dove there, to see that the marks were gone.

At any rate, requiring cave-quality buoyancy BEFORE taking people into caves would help a lot, I think.

I couldn't disagree more with your training preferences, in a controlled environment we all excel but handling what you don't know is coming is the difference between someone who dives good and a good diver, but thats another argument.

My question, and this is a serious one, is as follows:

So touching silt (loose) and limestone while training is OK? As stated before I'm a newbie

Obviously I would never touch a "formation" if it was clay or anything else, heck even mud slopes look very cool underwater.

Maybe I read to much into disturbing the cave, so guidance is appreciated.

[DA Aquamaster]

You know, one of the things I think would help would be if all agencies required a precursor class to cave training, something along the lines of GUE's Fundamentals class, or UTD's Overhead Protocols. There is no reason why good buoyancy and trim, and tolerance for task loading, needs to be learned in a cave, and it's hard on the cave. When I did my Cave 1 class in MX, the only time any of us touched the bottom (or anything else) was during the lost line drill, which is done, as Rob describes, in an area of deep silt and broken limestone, with no formations. (And my instructor took us about 15 feet off the line, let us STUDY where we were and what the passage was like and where the line was, and then put us in the dark. It took me 14 minutes to find the line, and my buddy took 12; it was profoundly instructive, simply because we WEREN'T spun around or otherwise disoriented. Even with plenty of warning and time to prepare, we found it hard -- THAT's how you impress students with how dangerous it is to lose the line.) Even in my Cave 2, where we didn't do very well (and yes, I didn't pass it) the only time we touched the bottom was when I kicked off my boot and fin in Twin and put my hands in the silt because I totally lost my balance. I felt awful about that damage, and tried to find someone to fix it for me. I was very pleased, the next time I dove there, to see that the marks were gone.

At any rate, requiring cave-quality buoyancy BEFORE taking people into caves would help a lot, I think.

I agree Lynn, and I think it would help the whole conservation cause, as students would be having less contact in the cave from day one. Psychologically there is an element of subornment in the normal NACD and NSS-CDS training methods as with limited skills at the start, unintended contact and damage is almost unavoidable and the student more or less accepts that contact and damage as "normal", or at least learns to come up with excuses when it does happen - and continues that process after training. I much prefer a cleaner approach where any contact is "bad". Of course, I was raised catholic so guilt comes naturally to me.

I also came to cave diving after 15 years or so of technical wreck diving, so I was solid with buoyancy and trim in doubles and a drysuit and had the propulsion techniques down so I was literally there to learn the cave specifics in my Cavern/Intro class. I was surprised to see the wide range of students in the class, and I was taken aback when one of the students I was doing a lights out/air share exit drill with remarked how solid my buoyancy skills were in the water. I thought everyone should be reasonably proficient with buoyancy and trim before showing up for a cavern class, but that was not the case.

[DA Aquamaster]

My question, and this is a serious one, is as follows:

So touching silt (loose) and limestone while training is OK? As stated before I'm a newbie

Obviously I would never touch a "formation" if it was clay or anything else, heck even mud slopes look very cool underwater.

Maybe I read to much into disturbing the cave, so guidance is appreciated.

I prefer the much cleaner look of a pristine floor, even if it's just silt. If the cave has heavy traffic, even if each diver only leaves one small mark on each dive, over not to much time, the floor starts looking like a construction site or maybe a muddy playground. That's not really what I want to see in a cave.

There are caves with sand, gravel, etc bottoms that are pretty durable and won't leave traces of contact. There are also cave floors where high flow has swept the bottom clean of silt and the left the limestone floor itself rather featureless. There will be more impact there, but they are still pretty durable and good locations for training, stage bottle placement, etc.

There are also caves where the flow is such that pulling and gliding may cause less damage than trying to swim in the flow, especially in tighter areas where swimming would result in less controlled and less precise fin contact. In that case, touching the cave to pull yourself forward may be preferable, particularly, if there are already spots well worn from previous contact.

Something I think many people don't even think about is the impact of their bubbles on sensitive structures in the cave. With delicate structures on the ceiling, you'll want to stay on the line so that you are not spreading the damage out away from the line. And in some caves, Upstream Cow is a good example, excursions off the line carry the risk of contact with the low ceiling, creating an extremely visible white mark on what is otherwise very dark chocolate brown to black walls and ceilings. If you ever dive there, you'll see marks 10-20 feet off the line, and that damage was 100% preventable as there was no need to go there in the first place, let alone going there with sub standard skills and contacting the cave.

What ever you are doing and where ever you are going, you should be using the approach that results in minimum contact and damage.

[Jont]

I prefer the much cleaner look of a pristine floor, even if it's just silt. If the cave has heavy traffic, even if each diver only leaves one small mark on each dive, over not to much time, the floor starts looking like a construction site or maybe a muddy playground. That's not really what I want to see in a cave.

There are caves with sand, gravel, etc bottoms that are pretty durable and won't leave traces of contact. There are also cave floors where high flow has swept the bottom clean of silt and the left the limestone floor itself rather featureless. There will be more impact there, but they are still pretty durable and good locations for training, stage bottle placement, etc.

There are also caves where the flow is such that pulling and gliding may cause less damage than trying to swim in the flow, especially in tighter areas where swimming would result in less controlled and less precise fin contact. In that case, touching the cave to pull yourself forward may be preferable, particularly, if there are already spots well worn from previous contact.

Something I think many people don't even think about is the impact of their bubbles on sensitive structures in the cave. With delicate structures on the ceiling, you'll want to stay on the line so that you are not spreading the damage out away from the line. And in some caves, Upstream Cow is a good example, excursions off the line carry the risk of contact with the low ceiling, creating an extremely visible white mark on what is otherwise very dark chocolate brown to black walls and ceilings. If you ever dive there, you'll see marks 10-20 feet off the line, and that damage was 100% preventable as there was no need to go there in the first place, let alone going there with sub standard skills and contacting the cave.

What ever you are doing and where ever you are going, you should be using the approach that results in minimum contact and damage.

Thats exactly what i was taught and it makes sense

Not a fan of bubbles they're annoying

thanks

[RN]

I couldn't disagree more with your training preferences, in a controlled environment we all excel but handling what you don't know is coming is the difference between someone who dives good and a good diver, but thats another argument.

My question, and this is a serious one, is as follows:

So touching silt (loose) and limestone while training is OK? As stated before I'm a newbie

Obviously I would never touch a "formation" if it was clay or anything else, heck even mud slopes look very cool underwater.

Maybe I read to much into disturbing the cave, so guidance is appreciated.

I don't think Lynne was stating she was in a controlled environment throughout all of her training. I'm pretty sure her instructor had plenty of announced drills. However, some drills need to be announced. Also, some skills, like the lost line drill, have more of an impact on the student when preparation is provided. I do something very similar to what Lynne described. Before the dive I tell my students exactly where the drill will be done. We discuss where the line is and I even give them advice on how to find the line. Many of them still don't find it and the ones that do usually take close to 10 minutes or longer to find it. This is with all the preparation. If you have so much trouble finding the line with that much preparation the lesson is clear. Don't lose the line!

Anyway, a general statement of "touching silt (loose) and limestone while training is OK" is not a very good statement at all. To that I have to answer no. However, there are areas of various caves where touching silt and/or limestone will have very minimal effect on the environment. Those are the areas that should be used for training. Even when I have students doing the lost line drill there are areas surround the location I choose to do this drill that I don't want them to touch. If they feel me pulling back on their legs they know that means turn around and start over from the tie off. Training is necessary but it doesn't need to involve damage to the caves.

[Jont]

I don't think Lynne was stating she was in a controlled environment throughout all of her training. I'm pretty sure her instructor had plenty of announced drills. However, some drills need to be announced. Also, some skills, like the lost line drill, have more of an impact on the student when preparation is provided. I do something very similar to what Lynne described. Before the dive I tell my students exactly where the drill will be done. We discuss where the line is and I even give them advice on how to find the line. Many of them still don't find it and the ones that do usually take close to 10 minutes or longer to find it. This is with all the preparation. If you have so much trouble finding the line with that much preparation the lesson is clear. Don't lose the line!

Anyway, a general statement of "touching silt (loose) and limestone while training is OK" is not a very good statement at all. To that I have to answer no. However, there are areas of various caves where touching silt and/or limestone will have very minimal effect on the environment. Those are the areas that should be used for training. Even when I have students doing the lost line drill there are areas surround the location I choose to do this drill that I don't want them to touch. If they feel me pulling back on their legs they know that means turn around and start over from the tie off. Training is necessary but it doesn't need to involve damage to the caves.

Hi Rob,

1) It wasn't a statement, it was a question.

2) Nowhere did she say she was in a controlled environment throughout her training and nowhere did I make such an inference, please re-read slowly, I make this mistake a lot as well.

3) At this point we're just splitting hairs.

4) I still disagree, preparing students for the worst case makes for better divers and gives them the "religion" they need to make the best decisions possible when it comes to planning

My original teachings and conclusions were spot on, the question was raised because I noticed a slight inconsistency that could be very well have been attributed to verbiage.

Common sense and reason needs to govern all, obviously instructors, photographers, videographers when conducting drills, shooting videos, technique demo's etc. should be in a "high use" cave and be at a location within that cave that minimizes impact even if it has no value other then esthetic.

[Tegg]

You know, one of the things I think would help would be if all agencies required a precursor class to cave training, something along the lines of GUE's Fundamentals class, or UTD's Overhead Protocols. There is no reason why good buoyancy and trim, and tolerance for task loading, needs to be learned in a cave, and it's hard on the cave. When I did my Cave 1 class in MX, the only time any of us touched the bottom (or anything else) was during the lost line drill, which is done, as Rob describes, in an area of deep silt and broken limestone, with no formations. (And my instructor took us about 15 feet off the line, let us STUDY where we were and what the passage was like and where the line was, and then put us in the dark. It took me 14 minutes to find the line, and my buddy took 12; it was profoundly instructive, simply because we WEREN'T spun around or otherwise disoriented. Even with plenty of warning and time to prepare, we found it hard -- THAT's how you impress students with how dangerous it is to lose the line.) Even in my Cave 2, where we didn't do very well (and yes, I didn't pass it) the only time we touched the bottom was when I kicked off my boot and fin in Twin and put my hands in the silt because I totally lost my balance. I felt awful about that damage, and tried to find someone to fix it for me. I was very pleased, the next time I dove there, to see that the marks were gone.

At any rate, requiring cave-quality buoyancy BEFORE taking people into caves would help a lot, I think.

Simply having solid instructors who don't just hand out cave cards would solve the problem.

You are addressing the symptom by adding a "new" class. If the instructors are crap, adding a class just pads the wallet and does nothing for the quality of student.

[MichaelAngelo]

Simply having solid instructors who don't just hand out cave cards would solve the problem.

You are addressing the symptom by adding a "new" class. If the instructors are crap, adding a class just pads the wallet and does nothing for the quality of student.

Bingo!

[Jim Wyatt]

Simply having solid instructors who don't just hand out cave cards would solve the problem.

.

Bingo X 2