How do you tie off and make a jump

[Kelly Jessop]

I'm starting to get a little scared here. Aren't the basics like:

1) never leave a conflicting line arrow;
.

I know awhile back there was a discussion on Scubaboard regarding this topic,and there were several new cave divers who all stated that temporary line arrows need to be in the direction of my exit when doing a jump,and they were vehemet that this is what they were taught and how it is supposed to be done. The usual comment that I personalize my line arrows so they won't be mistaken come up,and the line ahead hasn't been verified. So,someone is teaching this,nor am I going to be critical of their instruction. But incidents and accidents have occurred due to incorrectly placed line arrows,and if you place it on the line,there is no such thing as temporary vs permenant,because in an emergency you,or another team are not likely to pause to study each line arrow. I have always felt the best solution is if you are going to place a line arrow on the line,it must point the closest exit,if not sure,use something else.

[stairman]

I agree with that 100%. In an emergency your not gonna be thinking clearly and having conflicting arrow directions could add to the stress. I like the notched cookie idea [notch pointing out] Rob mentioned and will use that if or when I want to exit different from permanant jump direction.

[Bobby]

+ 100 Kelly

[mdax]

That's why I love my REM's and hope they stay rare in north florida. They give me the ability to point to my exit, but will not confuse other teams.
I tie into existing arrows on jumps as long as they confirm my exit, place a rem if my exit is different and tie into an arrow/rem on the other side. Just seems to be much easier to feel in zero vis and doesn't really take long to set up at all.
Do you'all also put cookies/rems when you run into arrows that point to another/closer exit?

[DA Aquamaster]

I know awhile back there was a discussion on Scubaboard regarding this topic,and there were several new cave divers who all stated that temporary line arrows need to be in the direction of my exit when doing a jump,and they were vehemet that this is what they were taught and how it is supposed to be done. The usual comment that I personalize my line arrows so they won't be mistaken come up,and the line ahead hasn't been verified. So,someone is teaching this,nor am I going to be critical of their instruction. But incidents and accidents have occurred due to incorrectly placed line arrows,and if you place it on the line,there is no such thing as temporary vs permenant,because in an emergency you,or another team are not likely to pause to study each line arrow. I have always felt the best solution is if you are going to place a line arrow on the line,it must point the closest exit,if not sure,use something else.

That's unfortunate.

It's always wise not to completely trust any marker in a cave, permanent or otherwise, unless you've placed it your self - and then you still want to verify it's correct. But it's a logical fallacy to conclude then that it's ok to drop any marker anyway you see fit, not matter how it may impact other divers. I've often heard the argument that "it's a personal marker, so I'll point it where I want to point it and everyone else needs to ignore it" and that usually goes hand in hand with the "I ignore everything in the cave except the markers I've placed" opinion of line marking, because the former exacerbates the need for the latter.

The problem is that if everyone is just in it for himself, then the line becomes a mess of conflicting arrows that can make it more difficult to exit and/or reduce the confidence a diver may have that they are going in the right direction. That just needlessly increases everyone's stress level.

With proper use of cookies (and properly marked/notched cookies), there is no need to create conflicts in the first place and you can still get the same level of directionality with your personal markers with out creating confusion.

Why is it an issue that instructors or agencies can't seem to agree on?

[DA Aquamaster]

Do you'all also put cookies/rems when you run into arrows that point to another/closer exit?

I will drop cookies on my exit side of a "conflicting" arrow if:

1) it's unfamiliar cave; and/or
2) the potential to encounter the marker in a silt out is high; or
3) the "shortest" exit was determined based on back mount clearances and the shortest sidemount exit is a lot shorter.

I'll also drop cookings on my exit side of a set of opposing arrows in the middle of a line, if the passage is such that determining direction after losing the line could be difficult and line markers are not frequent.

[TONY CHANEY]

One thing that resonated with was the cave diving accident that happened at Madison quite a few years ago. This was the at the same time the half hitch had collapsed and it was very silty. Bottom line a team passing through there stirred up a lot of silt,and thought it had collapsed again,but the one thing that contributed to their demise was there was a line arrow facing the wrong way. Their dive computer was downloaded and they went back and forth between conflicting line arrows,which had them use up valuable time.

Just changed the way I will do it for now on based on what input from other divers....cookie on exit side of jump and tie into it. Thanks for the info everyone.

[LCF]

I was taught what DA Aquamaster listed. Don't put a marker down that contradicts the general navigation of the cave, and always mark the exit side of any intersection with a cookie. I generally tie into the line itself, rather than the arrow, and the cookie I've placed on the exit side keeps the line from sliding that direction; the arrow keeps it from sliding the other way.

I dive with people who use individual cookies, and people who use team cookies, and I am willing to go either way. It is certainly true that if you have several teams doing the same line, and everybody is dropping a cookie, the intersections get pretty ridiculously busy.

[Wizard]

I was taught to mark the way you came. As pointed out, I thought this may be confusing. We were told it's OK to put the line on a permanent arrow and cookie your direction. However, if you came upon an arrow in a lights out or silt out that pointed the wrong way, go with direction of the majority. If you have went past several arrows and happen upon one that seemed the wrong way, check for a jump line. You would then know it's somebody else. If in doubt, feel the flow.
If no flow and no arrows, try not to imagine wife with insurance check in hand, boarding a plane to the Bahamas with new boyfriend.

[WEPIV]

------
Upstream of Kitty sink in Lafayette Blue I noted that dorf markers on the line were located on the exit (toward Kitty) side of many of the tie offs, which struck me as a very effective way to place a "directional" arrow pointing to the closest exit in a manner where it still gave you a reference to your exit in the other direction. Who ever placed those knew his stuff.

------

Would that be Sheck...?