Untrained cave diving in the DR

[Greenwood_60]

Youtube is saying the video is private but it is also saying something about having to be a google e-mail user to access Youtube now...? (This must be something new as of a couple of days ago.)

So I guess Gri Gri Divers got in contact with they're unsuspecting OW clients and asked them to take the video down, so I reposted it here since it is a perfect example of how to get yourself killed and hopefully will prevent that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH370_HOkAI

http://downloadyoutubevideo.org

[Curt Bowen]

some famous quote comes to mind here, "better to remain silent and be thought a ..." Bill

Here is another famous quote that comes to mind.......

[phillip1]

To tell the truth really and truly the IU divers do dive a lot in Padre Nuestro and yes with zero training etc.. but they do not come here often and it is definitely not on a regular basis at all. It is worth trying to stop that too, but let's not divert attention right now, this post is about Gri Gri Divers taking OW divers on a full cave dive and this is on a regular basis too only this time the clients posted a video and Gri Gri got caught, so to speak.

The real problem here in the DR is not IU, the real problem here in the DR are irresponsible dive shops and instructors taking OW clients on a regular daily basis way past the cavern zone in El Chicho and also in Cueva Taina, we are talking of penetration of 1000ft in a full cave environment, this despite numerous letters of warning etc.. these dive shops all act in bad faith as they all KNOW FULL WELL they are violating every single established safety guidelines there are, but choose to ignore the safety of all involved and do it anyway.

[phillip1]

Just to make myself very clear, I am 100% opposed to ANY untrained cave diving practice no matter who or how often they may be happening.
If it just once it is bad enough and warrants my 100% effort to try and prevent, my previous statement was to just remind everyone that this thread was about Gri Gri divers and the video they're clients posted showing a 1000ft penetration by untrained divers etc..
yes IU is a major problem too and thankfully people have sent in complaints to PADI about them, but the problem in this particular case is a local dive shop, if I had a video of IU and Beeker doing the same type of thing I would file the exact same PADI complaint I did with Gri Gri.

[Curt Bowen]

And your answer to the problem is????

I have been to the DR many times, all the way from the north coast, south western boarder, and the south eastern section. Many of these locations and people are very poor. They work for few dollars a day to provide what they can to their families.

When a (rich to their standard) person arrives with cash to spend, they do their best to serve for that dollar.

Hungry people do not care about some other country who established XXX standard for diving, fishing, hiking, or even prostitution. All they care about is putting food on the table and roof over their families head.

This is the same in every country, including the USA.

Yes, I understand that a dive shop owner may be of the upper class financially, but the poor workers they have in their shops most of the times are not.

You know all this, you live there and work there.

Solving this problem in the DR is most likely almost impossible. As in most countries, Money talks louder than rules.

To tell the truth really and truly the IU divers do dive a lot in Padre Nuestro and yes with zero training etc.. but they do not come here often and it is definitely not on a regular basis at all. It is worth trying to stop that too, but let's not divert attention right now, this post is about Gri Gri Divers taking OW divers on a full cave dive and this is on a regular basis too only this time the clients posted a video and Gri Gri got caught, so to speak.

The real problem here in the DR is not IU, the real problem here in the DR are irresponsible dive shops and instructors taking OW clients on a regular daily basis way past the cavern zone in El Chicho and also in Cueva Taina, we are talking of penetration of 1000ft in a full cave environment, this despite numerous letters of warning etc.. these dive shops all act in bad faith as they all KNOW FULL WELL they are violating every single established safety guidelines there are, but choose to ignore the safety of all involved and do it anyway.

[phillip1]

And your answer to the problem is????

I have been to the DR many times, all the way from the north coast, south western boarder, and the south eastern section. Many of these locations and people are very poor. They work for few dollars a day to provide what they can to their families.

When a (rich to their standard) person arrives with cash to spend, they do their best to serve for that dollar.

Hungry people do not care about some other country who established XXX standard for diving, fishing, hiking, or even prostitution. All they care about is putting food on the table and roof over their families head.

This is the same in every country, including the USA.

Yes, I understand that a dive shop owner may be of the upper class financially, but the poor workers they have in their shops most of the times are not.

You know all this, you live there and work there.

Solving this problem in the DR is most likely almost impossible. As in most countries, Money talks louder than rules.

The DR dive shops in Bayahibe are far form poor people trying to make a buck, for starters they are ALL foreigners not one shop is owned by any Dominicans and 99% of they're staff are also foreigners, you might see the odd Dominican boat captain here or there.
Almost all the LDS in Bayahibe have big twin engine boats and nice facilities, and all the owners all drive around in big SUV's so this whole poor country thing is very romantic and sounds really beautiful but it is 100% wrong in this case, especially in Bayahibe, especially talking about dive shops and especially not in Bayahibe which is definitely NOT a poor DR area in any way.
Dive shops in the DR employ almost no Dominicans at all and 99.9% of all instructors are foreigners.

Having said that, since no one seems to care here in the DR about untrained cave diving so our approach has been trying to raise awareness to the problem through sending letters to the LDS and visiting them in person to talk about how dangerous this type of untrained diving is, we installed warning signs in ALL DR caves there were none before.

We asked training agencies for help like the NACD, NSS/CDS and PADI and to endorse our letter or send they're own to the LDS and they all did and that has had a big impact and really cut down on the problem in a big way, it still goes on but as a result Casa daniel and Scuba Fun in Bayahibe have stopped taking divers past the sign in El chicho.

We also tried to get the Medio Ambiente office (they manage the park were the caves are) involved to try and only let full cave divers into the caves, check cert cards etc.. but they could not care less so that does not work.

We will continue to try and raise awareness to the problem of untrained cave diving, for example we are showing a DR cave diving film this weekend at Funglode Medio Ambiente film festival, a major event at UASD in Santo Domingo, Leonel himself will attend and it will also be on TV, our film starts with the cave diving warning sign with in big bold letters PELIGRO DE MUERTE and all the usual cave waring sign info.
After the screening we will be on a discussion panel and I plan on talking about the dangers of untrained cave diving.

What IMO makes the situation in the DR so much worse is that there is no untrained cave diving being done on people's own time and accepting the risks involved it is 100% dive shops taking unsuspecting OW clients on dives that they are mislead into thinking are safe.

Gri Gri is one of the last dive shops in Bayahibe still doing this so I will try and get them to stop, this goes FOR ANY dive shop or individual such as Beeker too.

You say solving the problem is almost impossible I disagree very difficult but not impossible, we even managed to get PADI to send a very strongly worded warning letter to every single dive shop and instructor in the DR, so no it is not impossible and it looks like the situation is improving a lot since a year ago.

Yes money talks in the DR and all the rich dive shop owners have been getting away with this and did not care at all but when PADI actually threatened sanctions the untrained diving was cut down by at least 70% if not more.

Even if it were impossible I think it is worth a try and myself and my dive buddies will keep trying until we get a safer situation like Mexico or Florida for example.

[wingman]

Here is another famous quote that comes to mind.......

<lol> you know of course that an ostrich doesn't really do that...i'm not suggesting invoking denial just getting the data before rushing in (another quote here?). Sorry to ruffle feathers but a single email to the research vice president would be enough to get their attention and the ball rolling. I find it very unlikely that they do not have processes in place for this and if not this could be well a good reason to take a good look at their scientific diving manual and policies and the diving control board monitoring of those activities. Clearly the local dive company is the more serious problem.

[gasdiver]

I agree with Curt that greed is pervasive in the US (as elsewhere), but it's liability that keeps the local shops from doing this more than signs, agency warning or anything else.

Phillip, what are the legal ramifications to the LDS in the event of a fatality? Do these OW divers sign a waiver before going on the dive? Can the victim's family take the LDS to court? Would the government prosecute them in some way?

[Curt Bowen]

Good point gasdiver.....

The USA is so top heavy on litigation and injury lawsuits that it has almost come to the point where Americans will not be able to do anything, even if we sign our lives away. Let alone crawl down in a underground cave that is filled with water! What are you out of your minds!

Because of this, most US companies would shy away from most liable activities, such as taking untrained divers into a cave.

I remember the days when no one cared if we explored a cave on the farmers property. Try it today and see how far you get....

Maybe along with educating the shops and resorts about cave training, someone could highlight the ramifications of liability? That is, if court system in the DR is not all bogged down and useless like it is here.

I agree with Curt that greed is pervasive in the US (as elsewhere), but it's liability that keeps the local shops from doing this more than signs, agency warning or anything else.

Phillip, what are the legal ramifications to the LDS in the event of a fatality? Do these OW divers sign a waiver before going on the dive? Can the victim's family take the LDS to court? Would the government prosecute them in some way?

[Curt Bowen]

Believe me when I say "We Ruffled LOTS of Feathers"!!!!
But even after plucking half the barn yard, nothing was done, and all that was accomplished was a few pillows filled with feathers.

<lol> you know of course that an ostrich doesn't really do that...i'm not suggesting invoking denial just getting the data before rushing in (another quote here?). Sorry to ruffle feathers but a single email to the research vice president would be enough to get their attention and the ball rolling. I find it very unlikely that they do not have processes in place for this and if not this could be well a good reason to take a good look at their scientific diving manual and policies and the diving control board monitoring of those activities. Clearly the local dive company is the more serious problem.