Untrained cave diving in the DR

[gasdiver]

Phillip, what are the legal implications for the LDS if there is a fatality? If they are serious, you might get their attention by pointing this out.

[Curt Bowen]

Philip

You are 100% correct with your beliefs and concerns. It is your country, thus you should have a better chance to make the difference that is needed. As for anyone else here, including myself that is concerned about cave diving safety, we are active in promoting and preaching in our own countries and training agencies.

I have delivered my email to Uwe as promised, what he or any other person chooses to do with it is 100% up to them. I have zero power or even proof any of my expedition contacts are involved. Until I see a photo or video with Uwe's smiling face taking OC divers in a cave, he himself is not guilty. Uwe was my expedition contact.....

"Phillip, read post #75."

oops sorry, I will be more diplomatic from now on I promise.

Really, I did not mean to offend anyone and I apologize if I did, it is just that this whole situation here really gets me mad and unless LDS come to realize how dangerous this type of diving is and stop doing this, someone will get killed and that would be a tragedy for everyone.

[phillip1]

That's cool and I appreciate your sending him a message as promised (I think that will help a lot actually) and I apologize for getting carried away, this kind of stuff (untrained diving) really pisses me off.

The whole Uwe thing was just that as co owner of Gri Gri he knows this going on and has no problem with it, but on the other hand as co owner he also has the authority within his own shop to make it stop should he decide to do so, hopefully that is what will happen.

[Curt Bowen]

Correct me if I am wrong but what I understand from your above quoted post is that since you do not plan on returning to this area of the DR you just don't care, which is fine that is your opinion just let's be clear.

If I did not care, I would not be wasting my time, energy, and brain cells typing these posts.

I could be out walking the bulldog (come ruffus), mowing my grass (dam weed wacker never wants to start), or better yet fishing on my dock with a bottle of suds, a bag of cheetos, scanning the latest copy of VIBE. (yo look at the booty on that girl, praise the lord)

But no, I am getting carpal tunnel syndrome, holding this iPad and calluses on my right index finger as I type with one finger. (ouch freekin hang nail)

[Jim Coke]

Phillip,

Do you or DRSS supporters have access to a local lawyer? This lawyer could be a friend of a friend who learned to dive or goes diving with people familiar with the DRSS? I am sure it would not be any trouble for a competent (and sympathetic) barrister to explain the current liability laws in the country. Keep in mind there are liability laws that cover "sporting activities" with compensation (paying for a cavern tour at a LDS) and without compensation (landowner gives DRSS free access to a cave entrance on his/her property).

Having this sort of knowledge places you in a much stonger position. The laws of the country should be pointed out in your letter to PADI and other organizations that certify the offending LDS employees. I am no fan or proponent of litigation and creating more complex laws for the sake of enriching lawyers retirement plan.

I think you have a few options to explore.

Jim

[phillip1]

Unfortunately here in the DR little would happen to the LDS if god forbid an accident were to happen, the clients sign waivers and a while back my lawyer here told me that the only thing that may get the LDS in trouble is the fact that the waiver does not say they will be taken on a dive that is out of they're level of training and that it is a full cave dive not a safe cavern dive.

The other sad reality in the DR is, if the family of a "guided" cave tour victim has a lot of money and some connections in the DR most probably the LDS will be shut down, to the contrary other than maybe losing the PADI license and paying a small fine probably nothing would happen to the LDS.
All caves in the Bayahibe area would be closed to diving probably forever, and the negative publicity (this would be front page news in every paper and news channel for sure) would have a really devastating effect on cave diving in the DR and many landowners would simply close the caves period, like Laguna Pepe in Punta Cana for example, were a bad double fatality happened ten years ago, same exact situation, OW instructor OW divers no training etc.. in addition to the tragic loss of life the cave has been closed ever since and it is never going to reopen.

The DR is a third world and very corrupt country, there is little enforcement of law unless you can pay. The angle we have found to work so far is through non stop letters, warnings, and raising the general public's awareness of the dangers involved etc.. having the training agencies send out warning letters has had a major impact.

We have also told all LDS that form now on we will be reporting all rule violations to PADI if we witness any untrained diving going on and this threat has seemed to work very well, the LDS hate us but the situation is safer.

However what you suggest could be a good solution and add weight to the letters we keep send to the LDS and I will definitely look into that some more.

Thanks

[FW]

Phillip,

What seemed to work in Q.R. was showing the shops that they could make just as much money, if not more, by having only Full Cave trained guides for cavern tours. Getting them to hold to four per guide may be an issue in the DR, but it could be done.

[phillip1]

I agree but the problem is that unless the authorities who manage the park were the caves are located decide to regulate the cavern diving like the Mexican tourism authorities did (I think) it will be very hard to organize that here but we are working on it.

We are writing up a proposal at the moment that we will present to the Medio Ambiente and Hotel Association in the next few weeks or so on how a safe cavern diving policy could work here just like it does in Mexico and Florida while keeping everyone's interests in mind, not just cave divers.

One major difference here as opposed to Mexico were the cavern dives are full on hour long swims, here in the DR the safe cavern zone in El Chicho and Padre Nuestro is very small and LDS will always be tempted to offer a "bigger" dive so to speak.

The only real cavern dive here in the DR is at El Dudu on the north coast were that has been zero diving past the warning sign for one main reason there is actually a really long safe cavern dive to offer clients so there has never been a need to go into the cave ever.

In Cueva Taina there is kind of a cavern dive similar to the new cavern line in Pet Cemetary, it is out of the daylight zone but there is a constant air pocket overhead so I guess it qualifies, the problem at Taian is that "guides" are taking clients past the warning sign and on the mainline which is insane since it is very silty and there is also a very pronounced hallocline, not to mention they have no line etc.. If "guides" would stick to the cavern line in taina it would be safe but some of them don't.

[DaveP]

Curt,
You were very careful on your wording... "expedition contacts" not expedition members.
From reading your DR report and looking at the OW dive video, one of your DR expedition team members was the guide from Gri Gri who took the OW divers on their cave dive. Looks like he is one of your ADM contributors and a possible co-owner of Gri Gri.

I have zero power or even proof any of my expedition contacts are involved. Until I see a photo or video with Uwe's smiling face taking OC divers in a cave, he himself is not guilty. Uwe was my expedition contact.....

[FW]

Curt,
You were very careful on your wording... "expedition contacts" not expedition members.
From reading your DR report and looking at the OW dive video, one of your DR expedition team members was the guide from Gri Gri who took the OW divers on their cave dive. Looks like he is one of your ADM contributors and a possible co-owner of Gri Gri.

Lets not keep fanning the flames.