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  1. #31
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    The rules are pretty simple. Suffice it to say that a large portion of this board has probably scootered in and out of the roller coaster without a reel (a time or two). Is it a good practice? No. Would I want my kids to do it? No. Would it be advertised? No

    The holes I play in now are dark, cold, nasty, sharp, lonely, and unforgiving. They are also untouched by man and a logistical nightmare. The rules are different but the cardinal rules are still key. Gas management isn't as simple as 1/3's, though it has taken some time to calculate gas management on the fly (starting with a couple hundred trips in Ginnie and the other Florida caves).

    Advocating visual jumps will add to the body count in cave country and Mexico. Most of the guys that I dove with frequently (in cave country) practiced "dynamic gas management". We were also all familiar with differential equations and statistics and weighed our actions on a cost/reward scale. We are also all still alive.

    The rules are not bulletproof. The likelihood of a negative outcome greatly increases when improper gas management strategies and guideline protocols are broken.

    Can you break protocols and live? Sure. Can you follow protocols and die? Sure. Statistically speaking, the odds are stacked far greater in your favor if you follow the few simple rules.

    We are talking about progressing through a hole filled with water. It's not really that difficult.

    Statements like "1/3's in Ginnie are ULTRA CONSERVATIVE" may hold water. Last time I checked, having reserve gas for "what-if's" hasn't cost many lives. The opposite can not be stated.

    I consider it poor form to advertise one's personal philosophies to untrained, unskilled, or inexperienced divers in any environment, especially advocating gas planning ideas that can not be executed without a firm understanding of the concept.

    The more things change, the more they stay the same.

    Why is it that nobody ever says,"I wish I would have worked more!"?

    ><((((º>¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·..¸¸ ><((((º>`·.¸¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º>

    Jamie Rumph

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by chimie007 View Post
    I see plenty of new cave divers going full 1/3 in no flow system. While they have been told to be conservative during training, they simply follow the rule as it's named: "Rule of 1/3".
    Unfortunately, I don't think this is stressed enough by most instructors. I have been diving with a fair number of cave divers and most are more than willing and ready to dive to full 1/3s and they think that is conservative enough. The point was obviously not gotten across to them. I make it a point to hammer into my students that 1/3s is not conservative enough. And I provide examples of how it is not. They may not be real world examples that have happened, but I think they get the point across. I don't think 1/3s is even necessarily conservative enough in what most consider high flow systems. JB used to have a lot of flow. But I also remember doing a single stage swim dive to 3000' in there a couple of years ago. The flow has since picked up, but it's coming back down now and you do have to fin on the exit otherwise you will not get out faster than you got in. But many divers "know" JB as a high flow cave and so they dive to 1/3s based on its history.

    Rob Neto
    Chipola Divers, LLC
    Check out my new book - Sidemount Diving - An Almost Comprehensive Guide
    "Survival depends on being able to suppress anxiety and replace it with calm, clear, quick and correct reasoning..." -Sheck Exley

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDR View Post
    The rules are pretty simple. Suffice it to say that a large portion of this board has probably scootered in and out of the roller coaster without a reel (a time or two). Is it a good practice? No. Would I want my kids to do it? No. Would it be advertised? No

    The holes I play in now are dark, cold, nasty, sharp, lonely, and unforgiving. They are also untouched by man and a logistical nightmare. The rules are different but the cardinal rules are still key. Gas management isn't as simple as 1/3's, though it has taken some time to calculate gas management on the fly (starting with a couple hundred trips in Ginnie and the other Florida caves).

    Advocating visual jumps will add to the body count in cave country and Mexico. Most of the guys that I dove with frequently (in cave country) practiced "dynamic gas management". We were also all familiar with differential equations and statistics and weighed our actions on a cost/reward scale. We are also all still alive.

    The rules are not bulletproof. The likelihood of a negative outcome greatly increases when improper gas management strategies and guideline protocols are broken.

    Can you break protocols and live? Sure. Can you follow protocols and die? Sure. Statistically speaking, the odds are stacked far greater in your favor if you follow the few simple rules.

    We are talking about progressing through a hole filled with water. It's not really that difficult.

    Statements like "1/3's in Ginnie are ULTRA CONSERVATIVE" may hold water. Last time I checked, having reserve gas for "what-if's" hasn't cost many lives. The opposite can not be stated.

    I consider it poor form to advertise one's personal philosophies to untrained, unskilled, or inexperienced divers in any environment, especially advocating gas planning ideas that can not be executed without a firm understanding of the concept.

    The more things change, the more they stay the same.
    Well said.....


  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by aainslie View Post
    This is going in circles.

    .
    You are right. The only difference is I have a continuous guideline to find my way out from the circles,est vous

    "Not all change is improvement...but all improvement is change" Donald Berwick

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by aainslie View Post
    This is going in circles.

    This was not my intention of this thread. I was looking for opinions for all the different corners of the cave diving community, to see what the general feeling was with different individuals.


  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDR View Post
    I consider it poor form to advertise one's personal philosophies to untrained, unskilled, or inexperienced divers in any environment, especially advocating gas planning ideas that can not be executed without a firm understanding of the concept.
    I couldn't agree with you more.

    Subjects that were discussed around the campfire at the end of a day of diving between divers with experience and a high familiarity with that system are now thoughtlessly splattered across the internet for all to read. And in many cases applied blindly by those without the necessary skill and experience under the "if he can do it, so can I" approach.

    Andrew, it is my understanding that you teach at the college level- that may be incorrect- but, if so, nobody needs to tell you the sheep:wolf ratio in our world.

    JR

    Last edited by Sludge; 09-12-2009 at 06:03 AM. Reason: bbcode

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyrichards View Post

    Andrew, it is my understanding that you teach at the college level- that may be incorrect- but, if so, nobody needs to tell you the sheep:wolf ratio in our world.

    JR
    On breaking the rules, I am keeping my thoughts to myself.

    Not sure how to apply the sheep-wolf analogy though. People are sheep yes. The vast majority will follow blindly. But Andrew is not the wolf. He may be one of the shepherds who seems to (mis)lead a flock down a valley where there are wolves. These wolves come in all shapes and sizes; most notably people's own minds (ego and insight),responsibilities and accountability.

    Too many others seem to have a need to put a fence atop the valley ridges to prevent the flock from merrily walking in and ignorantly mingle with the beasts of the mind. Andrew seems to definitely point them out though.............

    My two cents looking at the scene of the land.

    Last edited by MengTze; 09-12-2009 at 01:42 PM. Reason: can't frikkin spell
    Meng Tze
    -Homo Bonae Voluntatis

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by aquadog196 View Post
    When is the last time you've seen a team in the water preparing their dive do a complete "S" drill?
    Yesterday

    John Naschek
    Canton Georgia

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by aainslie View Post
    Why is it that cave diving is so rule bound?

    I really think that Sheck would be shocked at our lack of willingness to THINK if he were here today. He and other divers came up with those rules by thinking. Why the hell did it have to stop once they'd written them down?
    I agree that the ability to think, to incorporate lots of information from a variety of sources and to understand complex relationships, and to be able to do it under pressure, is the hallmark of a truly exceptional cave diver.

    I am a psychologist by training and a Program Evaluator by trade, and an understanding of why people feel they "know what they know" and how they resolve conflicts is often very helpful in both fields.

    Some people "know" based on Authority - someone with credibility said it so it must be true. That someone could be Jesus, the President, Shek Exley or GI3. Most people start out that way. When your parents say "because I said so" it is usually good enough when you are 5 or 6, but not so much as you get older.

    As you age and mature you start using other ways of knowing such as the experience and experimentation to see "what happens if" (basically the scientific method).

    You also start using logic to make inferences from one event to another and you even use predjudice as it helps you process large amounts of information quickly. (If I burned my hand on a stove once, I am probably going to "pre-judge" and always assume the stove is hot until I confirm otherwise - its not fair to all those cold stoves out there, but it's the way it is as we are hard wired that way).

    And many people also start looking at philosohy to help piece together a bigger picture of how things relate. This becomes very crucial when confronted with complex problems or situations where rules may conflict or where no rules directly apply.

    ----

    Kohlberg talks about moral and ethical development and it relates closely with how people come to know that they know.

    To simplify it, the earliest stage of development is authoritarian where you do what you do because someone told you to do it and they'll punish you if you don't.

    As you advance you focus on the rules - you do it because the book or the rules tell you to do it, and you generally believe in the concept that without the rules we'd have big problems and/or chaos. Most people operate there most or all of their lives.

    Eventually, some people get to the stage where they realize that the rules are often in conflict, result in a less than optimum outcome or do not fit some unique situations - often in the form of an ethical dilemma. At that point people start to be guided not by the rules, but by the larger purpose the rules are supposed to serve. Doing that requres a great deal of experience and an understanding of what the rules are trying to promote so that you can make judgment calls regarding when to apply or ignore the rules, and if two rules are in conflict, what rule to break and which one to follow. Not everyone ever gets there. And even a person who operates there most of the time will fall back to the lower levels when in unfamiliar territory.

    As applied to cave diving:

    "I am going to do what my cave instructor tells me to do, becasue he will fail me if I do not" is probably pretty common on day one of Cavern or Into Class for most new cave divers as their experience is limited - they don't even know yet what they do not know, so they rely on authority.

    As the cave diver advances, they learn the rules and they apply them. As they gain more and more experience they begin to see both the costs and the benefits of the rules and consider not always following them. (This is a true danger zone, as you may know a lot, but not enough to fully understand all the risks and downsides.)

    And, in a full cave class for example, the instructor is not only assessing whether you follow the rules, but whether you can also think, so you can no longer rely on authority as that "authority" may intentionally lead you off on the wrong line to see if you are aware of it and if you call him on it.

    Also, diving at the Intro/full cave level you begin to see the full impact of some of the ethical dilemmas you may face. If you have a lost buddy, how long do you stay? How much gas to you use? How close do you cut it to exit? There are no cut in stone right or wrong answers as it is very dependent on the specific situation and you need to rely on the higher principles involved, not just the rules, to make a truely ethical decision.

    On the other hand, you need acknowledge the danger zone and be very careful to ensure that you are breaking the rules for a higher purpose rather than just because of complacency, stupidity or ego. Complacency is the negative side effect you acquire from breaking a rule or rules on a regular basis and getting away with it. The sad fact is that you learn a lot more from the stuff that almost kills you, but you only learn it if you survive, while "success" teaches you very little and what it teaches you is often very misleading.

    Similarly, stupid cave divers may break rules for really stupid reasons, like busting thirds because they are sure soemone else will call the dive in the next couple hundred feet and they do not want to be the hoover that thumbs the dive. Cave divers can also break rules due to a lack of confidence or due to a desire to fit in. He or she may not call the dive when they exceed their comfort level as they are afraid they will not be invited to dive with that group again. The "higher purpose" in that case is acceptance, but it is not a purpose worth dying for and it is not worth risking the lives of your team mates.

    So in short, when operating at the level where you take the rules with a grain of salt, you need to be very wise, you need to see the big picture, and you need to be very, very good at predicting unintended consequences. And you need to check your ego and any hubris at the door as at that level, in a cave environment, humility and really knowing your limitations is all that is keeping you alive.

    I'd argue that fewer than 10% of cave divers out there can safely operate at that level and I'd argue that 90% of the cave divers who feel they can, in fact can't. Some of the egos in this sport are monumental.


  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster View Post
    I agree that the ability to think, to incorporate lots of information from a variety of sources and to understand complex relationships, and to be able to do it under pressure, is the hallmark of a truly exceptional cave diver.

    I am a psychologist by training and a Program Evaluator by trade, and an understanding of why people feel they "know what they know" and how they resolve conflicts is often very helpful in both fields.

    Some people "know" based on Authority - someone with credibility said it so it must be true. That someone could be Jesus, the President, Shek Exley or GI3. Most people start out that way. When your parents say "because I said so" it is usually good enough when you are 5 or 6, but not so much as you get older.

    As you age and mature you start using other ways of knowing such as the experience and experimentation to see "what happens if" (basically the scientific method).

    You also start using logic to make inferences from one event to another and you even use predjudice as it helps you process large amounts of information quickly. (If I burned my hand on a stove once, I am probably going to "pre-judge" and always assume the stove is hot until I confirm otherwise - its not fair to all those cold stoves out there, but it's the way it is as we are hard wired that way).

    And many people also start looking at philosohy to help piece together a bigger picture of how things relate. This becoems very crucial when confronted with complex problems or situaiosn where rules may conflict or where no rules directly apply.

    ----

    Kohlberg talks about moral and ethical development and it relates closely with how people come to know that they know.

    To simplify it, the earliest stage of development is authoritarian where you do what you do because someone told you to do it and they'll punish you if you don't.

    As you advance you focus on the rules - you do it because the book or the rules tell you to do it, and you generally believe in the concept that without the rules we'd have big problems and/or chaos. Most people operate there most or all of their lives.

    Eventually, some people get to the stage where they realize that the rules are often in conflict, result in a less than optimum outcome or do not fit some unique situations - often in the form of an ethical dilemma. At that point people start to be guided not by the rules, but by the larger purpose the rules are supposed to serve. Doing that requres a great deal of experience and an understanding of what the rules are trying to promote so that you can make judgment calls regarding when to apply or ignore the rues, and if two rules are in conflict, what rule to break and which one to follow. Not everyone ever gets there. And even a person who operates there most of the time will fall back to the lower levels when in unfamiliar territory.

    As applied to cave diving:

    "I am going to do what my cave instructor telle me to do, becasue he will fail me if I do not" is probably pretty common on day one of Cavern or Into Class for most new cave divers as their experience is limited - they don't even know yet what they do not know, so they rely on authority.

    As the cave diver advances, they learn the rules and they apply them. As they gain more and more experience they begin to see both the costs and the benefits of the rules and consider not always following them. (This is a true danger zone, as you may know a lot, but not enough to fully understand the risks and downsides.)

    And, in a full cave class for example, the instructor is not only assessing whether you follow the rules, but whether you can also think, so you can no longer rely on authority as that "authority" may intentionally lead you off on the wrong line to see if you are aware of it and if you call him on it.

    Also, diving at the Intro/full cave level you begin to see the full impact of some of the ethical dilemmas you may face. If you have a lost buddy, how long do you stay? How much gas to you use? How close do you cut it to exit? There are no cut in stone right or wrong answers as it is very dependent on the specific situation and you need to rely on the higher principles involved, not just the rules, to make a truely ethical decision.

    On the other hand, you need acknowledge the danger zone and be very careful to ensure that you are breaking the rules for a higher purpose rather than just because of complacency, stupidity or ego. Complacency is the negative side effect you acquire from breaking a rule or rules on a regular basis and getting away with it. The sad fact is that you learn a lot more from the stuff that almost kills you, but you only learn it if you survive, while "success" teaches you very little and what it teaches you is often very misleading.

    Similarly, stupid cave divers may break rules for really stupid reasons, like busting thirds because they are sure soemone else will call the dive in the next couple hundred feet and they do not want to be the hoover that thumbs the dive. Cave divers can also break rules due to a lack of confidence or due to a desire to fit in. He or she may not call the dive when they exceed their comfort level as they are afraid they will not be invited to dive with that group again. The "higher purpose" in that case is acceptance, but it is not a purpose worth dying for and it is not worth risking the lives of your team mates.

    So in short, when operating at the level where you take the rules with a grain of salt, you need to be very wise, you need to see the big picture, and you need to be very, very good at predicting unintended consequences. And you need to check your ego and any hubris at the door as at that level, in a cave environment, humility and really knowing your limitations is all that is keeping you alive.

    I'd argue that fewer than 10% of cave divers out there can safely operate at that level and I'd argue that 90% of the cave divers who feel they can, in fact can't. Some of the egos in this sport are monumental.
    Excellent Post!

    Meng Tze
    -Homo Bonae Voluntatis


 

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