Exceeding one's training

[Marc Bryan]

Excellent post, well said Bill.

Ditto

[Dsix36]

I really agree with Bill.

Jeff, a friend of mine, and myself were just discussing this over a plate of wings this evening. I have been diving beyond my training quite a bit in the last couple of years and have taken a bit of slack for being prone to getting stuck in some tight places in the process. I have been diving with people that are more advanced (read as trained) than myself and have been learnig a lot. I have never been pushed or persuaded to do anything that I wasn't ready to do. I have not yet went past my comfort level without thumbing the dive. My own personal comfort level is my main consideration for any dive that I am planning (goes the same for during also).

[LCF]

I understand what drives people to dive beyond their training.

I have my TDI Intro cert, and GUE Cave 1 from last May. I have now done almost 100 cave dives since those certs, and I will confess that it is very difficult to make myself stay within the restrictions of my card. It's easy to say, "What's the big deal about a jump, already?" "How much trouble could I get into in a little bit of a restriction?" "It wouldn't hurt if I just went a LITTLE bit past sixths . . . "

Honestly, two things have kept me on the straight and narrow (so to speak). One is that I'm at heart a chicken, and I really don't want to find out what the answers to those questions above are. The other is that I dive a lot where my instructors dive, and I have also learned that the cave diving community is a VERY small one, and despite the politics, everybody seems to talk to everybody else. Danny would draw and quarter me and hang me from the eaves at Zero G if he caught me exceeding my limits, and I know it

And yes, Cave 2 is on the menu for this year, but it took an awful long time to find the dates and somebody to do it with. Beginning cave training attracts a lot of people, but going beyond that seems to narrow the pool a lot.

[stairman]

Back to the original question? Bigger balls than wallet.

[DA Aquamaster]

People exceed training for reasons that are both psychological and social in nature.

I think Bill articulated the experience versus training issue well. You can have all the training on the planet and it will not make you a better or safer diver without a comensurate amount of experience, and more importantly, experience acquired along the way in between classes that will let you develop your skills as well as develop a better idea of what you need to know and what you don't know.

I think it also needs to be stressed that what ever card you have it is just a license to continue learning, not some sort of statement that ever says you now know enough, or god forbid, that you know it all.

One observation I have made is that cave divers tend to be a very insular and cliquish group that is not always aware of the messages that get sent to others outside the group. For example, the point is made time and time again (with good reaosn) that an OW instructor has no business being in a cave and it gets stated as "no amount of OW training can prepare you for diving in a cave".

Well that makes sense as the average OW instructor has often only been diving a couple years and knows very little. But I have observed many cave divers who apply that in reverse and somehow think that having a full cave cert conveys upon them a great dea of experience and wisdom simply from their exposure and training in a cave environment and they discount any possible value in other experience outside a cave, citing the line mentioned above.

So in effect, years of experience in low viz, no viz, wreck pentration, deco experience, etc and the maturity that comes with that in addition to cave certification gets discounted. In effect, the unintended consequence has been to actually create a myth of invulnerability with cave training that you see in the too soon, too far, too fast diver.

I and my buddy joke about being superior beings since we are full cave divers, but some cave divers I suspect they take the cert way too seriously and start to belive they really are superior - and fail to realize the fallacy of believing that in an environment where full cave is about equal to a high school diploma.

And some who realize try to fix it by going straight into more advanced training and more complex endeavors such as a rebreather training that in the end just helps them get even farther over their head in the training versus experience ratio.

Many of the too far too fast crowd may have been better served building more dives and more experience and frankly more maturity over more time doing technical diving in other areas getting real world experience encountering and solving real world problems rather than focusing on lots of cave specific training during only a few florida cave trips per year.

I also see too many too young, to immature and too aggressive cave divers who I suspect in the back of their minds want to either be the next Sheck Exley or at least gain acceptance with the big boys in cave diving. I'd have been one of them 20 yrs ago, but the perspective of age often brings with the wisdom not to really give a damn what someone else thinks and that becomes a real asset for survival.

I also think compacency is a major issue among experienced cave divers, and the fact that thay have done something a hundred or a thousand times and never had it develop into a problem becomes proof in their minds that it isn't. Eventually it becomes the justifcation for breaking the basic rules that sooner or later result in a death.

I think too many of us may spend too much time looking at how we stack up to others instead of taking a hard and introspective look at ourselves and our pesonal stenghts and weaknesses and our physcical and psychological abilities as they exist well beyond the basics that are taught in a class.

[aainslie]

What if I changed the phrase "exceeding training" to "extending knowledge"?

There's no way you'll do anything if you only stay within your bounds. Cave diving wouldn't exist if the early pioneers didn't "exceed their training".

Sure, they paid a heavy toll. But to my mind two things are critical:

1) Risk can be mitigated by using your noggin. I increasingly use unconventional protocols that I come up with myself. I happen to think that cave diving is far more amenable to improvement through intellect than most out there. I occasionally make the mistake of trying to share this, resulting in my getting yelled at by the luddites. A really unfortunate thing about cave diving is it is NOT a sport that is receptive to new ideas. Take thirds... (I'll bet that got either an eye roll, sigh or increase on blood pressure from half of you!)

2) Some people have a higher willingness to risk death. If you're young, or well insured and don't have kids or any real dependents, is it such a bad thing? In fact let's just take the word "exploration". Isn't one person's "exploration" another's "exceeing one's experience level"?

Anyway each to their own. I think pushing is fine, as long as you're willing to realise that a mistake is costly.

[Dsix36]

What if I changed the phrase "exceeding training" to "extending knowledge"?

There's no way you'll do anything if you only stay within your bounds. Cave diving wouldn't exist if the early pioneers didn't "exceed their training".

Sure, they paid a heavy toll. But to my mind two things are critical:

1) Risk can be mitigated by using your noggin. I increasingly use unconventional protocols that I come up with myself. I happen to think that cave diving is far more amenable to improvement through intellect than most out there. I occasionally make the mistake of trying to share this, resulting in my getting yelled at by the luddites. A really unfortunate thing about cave diving is it is NOT a sport that is receptive to new ideas. Take thirds... (I'll bet that got either an eye roll, sigh or increase on blood pressure from half of you!)

2) Some people have a higher willingness to risk death. If you're young, or well insured and don't have kids or any real dependents, is it such a bad thing? In fact let's just take the word "exploration". Isn't one person's "exploration" another's "exceeing one's experience level"?

Anyway each to their own. I think pushing is fine, as long as you're willing to realise that a mistake is costly.

Now this is one that I resemble and just happen to agree with also.

[FW]

When the NSS-CDS had it's first instructor crossover meeting, Rory Dickens made a wonderful statement. It sums up all of the above. He said: "Anyone can teach themselves anything, but it is much more efficient to learn from someone who has already done it".

I have already told Andrew this, but I have had several close friends that pushed thirds, and they are all dead! Some pushed to finish maps, some to explore farther, some to set records, but they are STILL DEAD.

[aainslie]

I have already told Andrew this, but I have had several close friends that pushed thirds, and they are all dead! Some pushed to finish maps, some to explore farther, some to set records, but they are STILL DEAD.

Because they did it wrong.

[FW]

Because they did it wrong.

One was a Phd in math...
Another was an engineer...
There is no right way!