Questions on Training

[Johnny5]

I plan to begin my cave diving training this year. While there are a few instructors locally, I have yet to meet one that I feel comfortable training with. Also, I seem to get a very wide range of answers to exactly what the training involves. Some seem motivated only by $$ while one or two make it sound like I could be "Full Cave" in a matter of weeks with some local quarry training and a short trip to Florida. While I'm sure there are many varying opinions here as well, I was hoping to get some help with a few "Newbie" questions about cave diving training:

How important is it to have a "local" instructor for cave training?
- I live in OH... If my cave instructor is in Florida, will this be a big problem?

How long should I expect to spend at each level?
- From some websites and local instructors it looks like I could combine Cavern and Intro in one week and then Apprentice / Full Cave the next and be Full Cave certified... Can this be true?

(Not that I want to rush thru that quickly.... but I've also been told to expect about 2-3 years along with years salary to get to Full Cave.
I just want to know what a reasonable expectation is)

I know you can't recommend specific instructors, but any other tips or information about choosing a cave diving instructor would be appreciated.

Thanks for the help!

Johnny 5

[aainslie]

Hey Johnny,

I live in CA, and a big group of us have done our training over the last couple of years. So I'll give a "student' perspective.

1) No problem with out of town. Many people do this.

2) We've had LA peope doing this every way from one class at a time to all 4 in 8 days. If you're a local I think it's great to do one at a time, and practice in between, but most of us can't do this. And the 7-8 day mega class is IMHO too damn much. Doing cavern/intro, then a diving trip, then app/full on three trips each 5 to 7 days long is the best way to go I think. The extra practice really helps.

3) I think the classes go for anywhere from $250 to $450 depending on instructor, number in class etc so a max of $1800, and probably less with a group. But the bg thing is gear - man oh man, gear! I now have about $8000 of gear that just sits in High Springs for cave trips. but a lot you can rent etc.. I'd budget about $1000 to $2000 depending on what you already have. Lastly you need accommodation, transport etc - remember to budget for that too for each trip. Oh - and $25 or so a day to use Ginnie.

It is my never-humble opinion that all four levels of cave training should be at least several months apart, with at least a dozen dives between levels. That's my opinion.

It is also my opinion that during a cave diver's first hundred cave dives, he/she should not allow more than a couple of months to elapse without diving. I'm not a local, but it is only 250 miles to cave country. In your case, diving in quarries with doubles, practicing with reels, should keep you sharp.

You have cave diving instructors in Ohio?

Here's another opinion that's sure to tick somebody off: I wouldn't use an instructor that teaches cave diving full time. (Somebody that owns a shop doesn't fall into this category, as his shop is his job.) The reason I say this is that guys move to cave country to teach cave diving full time, for the love of cave diving, but before long it's all about the money.

To me, the ideal instructor has a full-time job someplace besides cave country, but he goes there several times a month to teach. You know, like my instructor did . . .

[Johnny5]

You have cave diving instructors in Ohio?

I have come across a few that have the necessary qualifications to teach cave diving, but, while I may be able to agree with you that the instructor does not need to be a "full time" cave instructor, the guys I have met are way too "part time" and seem to just be looking for the next sucker to give them an all-expense paid trip to the springs of Florida.

(Not trying to tick-off any caving instructors in OH... keep in mind I've only met a few. I'm sure there are some good ones here.)

Taking time between levels seems a good plan. I guess I was thinking of combining Cavern and intro in one trip, practicing, and then returning for apprentice and full on another trip a few months later.... more practice, etc.

Cavern and intro in one trip

If you have your own doubles and are totally comfortable in them, this isn't all that bad an idea.

However, I would still do Apprentice and Full at different times. There's just so much to learn.

[rjack]

I'm only at the ~intro/apprentice level (GUe has a different structure) but I'll offer my presepctives as a recent cave student.

How important is it to have a "local" instructor for cave training?

Not relevant, at least it wasn't for me. Find someone who has taken a class from the instructor though. Preferably about half a dozen. Ask them what was involved, how many dives, where, etc. Get referenecs and check them! Also you need to ask tough questions of your instructor. Others here can help with this issue.

How long should I expect to spend at each level?
- From some websites and local instructors it looks like I could combine Cavern and Intro in one week and then Apprentice / Full Cave the next and be Full Cave certified... Can this be true?

Theoretically yes. But you're compromising your safety and learning by blitzing along. I would guess (not there yet myself) that you need 25-50 dives at each level in order for the skills to be totally absorbed and have the brain sponge ready for more. Any less and you will still be addressing the issues and skills in the earlier classes as you pile on the later classes. A card is really just a license to learn. I know I need the out of class experience.

(Not that I want to rush thru that quickly.... but I've also been told to expect about 2-3 years along with years salary to get to Full Cave.
I just want to know what a reasonable expectation is)

This is my plan.

Richard

[Mike]

I would recommend & a great guy.
I would go down & do intro to cave, come home & digest what you've just been through & learned, then go and do about 25-30 cave dives before you go back for full cave ( after the intro class you will be too worn out to want to go any further anyway).
You need a few dives in between to get more experence in the cave element before going back for more abuse.

Mike M

[dgschott]

So - Let me tell you something about instruction.... You're not going to eventually go to a CCR, are you? (I'm just kidding)

Seriously - I feel that there is a good argument for doing cavern/intro, then apprentice/full a little bit later, HOWEVER, I also think there is a valid argument to do them with little to no diving in between. That is to avoid bad habits. It's better and easier not to get into bad habits rather than breaking bad habits. I'm just being devils advocate to the last post.

I personally did my cavern/intro - did some diving and about 6 months later did my apprentice/full. I felt comfy in the water, and things went well. Everyone's different, and I have seen some people that need more time and some that need less time. It's probably something best to chat with your instructor about. I would schedule cavern/intro, then ask your instructor what he or she feels should be the progression. That was how I did it.

As an edit - If we are giving recommendations for instructors, I would highly recommend .

is a new instructor (NAUI & NACD) - I didn't take my cave courses with him, but I did do my trimix courses and he was excellent. I would expect him to be an excellent cavern/cave instructor as well.

Both of them live down there and dive all the time.

[Mike]

dgschott,

As I posted at almost the same time you did I am guessing your referring to the post above mine.
Anyway, Your instructor should have gotten you on the right track as far as gear configuration & bad habits in the intro class, right ?
It's up to you to keep them up & progress with your diving skills.
I do agree there are some who are naturals for this sport who can jump right in & keep going but, lack the hands on experience that only comes with being around those who have done this for a long, long time.

Mike M

I agree with David Schott's opinion of
He was the instructor in training when I was doing my intro class.
Very Professional & knows cave diving inside out.

[BobK]

You have cave diving instructors in Ohio?

ITaking time between levels seems a good plan. I guess I was thinking of combining Cavern and intro in one trip, practicing, and then returning for apprentice and full on another trip a few months later.... more practice, etc.

Actually, out of the four classes, I think Cavern is the hardest. That's the class that turns you from an OW diver into an overhead environment diver, and I think really has the most material to learn. I took that class, practiced what i was taught for about a year, and then took Intro, Apprentice and Full relatively quickly after that (Another 1.5 years total). Whatever you do, I would definitely stay away from the 4 class super cert. I think you'd forget more of the little details that help keep you alive in a cave. My 0.02