What do you do when you see snorkles 300 ft into a cave?

[Sludge]

I had a group of idiots follow me into orange grove, 3 of them, single tank, yolk, NO reels, NO LIGHTS

Next time that happens, here's what you do: have your team cover their lights with their palm or chest or whatever - for about ten seconds. Then uncover them and see if the open water divers don't set an underwater speed record exiting.

[fixxervi6]

You don't seem very concerned about it. Don't you recall the talk several months ago about closing land access to Devil's after a death occurred there? There are several cenotes in Mexico we just lost access to. Morrison was dynamited because of OW divers dying in there. Jackson Blue was closed for several years because of deaths in there. If you're so concerned about it then do something about it. Letting them be stupid and kill themselves does affect us because we can lose access because of them. Non cave divers don't know or care that the deaths were of non cave trained divers. All they know is someone dies there, so they shut us out completely. Reading them the riot act does not necessarily mean chewing them out. It means educating them on the stupidity of their actions. It means telling them about all the people that have died doing exactly what they were doing. It means encouraging them to get the proper training. If we all just sit around and let stupid be stupid, we're going to lose access to the few caves we do have access to. I don't want to see that happen. That's why I would abort my own dive to drag them out of the cave and have a talk with them. I don't care if they think I'm an a-hole after that or not. At least no one is going to have to recover the bodies that day.

You "drag" them out of the cave you cold face assult charges, you have fun with that.

I've never heard anyone using the term riot act in anything other than a butt chewing.

I do have concerns about site access, but dragging people out of the cave is not the answer, neither is chewing them out.

[kidsdream]

I have to believe these two were pretty close to freaking out around the time we ran into them. We didn't see anybody that resembled the two on the surface or hanging around after our dives so we were not able to discuss the error of their ways.

Most likely they were rinsing out their wetsuits due to a severe sphincter reaction. I am not making light of this, but I think these two will think twice before they head in a cave again.

[Serota]

I have to believe these two were pretty close to freaking out around the time we ran into them.

300 feet into heavy flow, with high anxiety and poor technique, I imagine that the Al 80s were getting pretty low. If you guys hadn't encountered them at that point, they could have easily not made it out.

[FW]

All this, along with the Vortex thread has given me an idea. If you do catch an OW diver coming out of a cave, ask them for their C-card, and get the name of the OW instructor. Report the instructor to his/her agency for failure to convince their students about the dangers of overhead, and the need for specialized training. If all instructors, and training agencies *emphasized" the dangers, and the need for training, the occurences of this would diminish.

In state parks, do the same thing, by going to the ranger station, report them, and ask for the name of the instructor, and agency. It wouldn't hurt for the park to do the same thing.

[sskasser]

Places like Blue Grotto make divers watch a video before diving. I wonder how much difference it would make if Manatee and Vortex (and other places with both OW and cave diving) made OW divers watch "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die" or something similar prior to being allowed to dive.

[MORGAN]

...made OW divers watch "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die" or something similar prior to being allowed to dive.

Or if the OW certification agencies made this a required part of their basic OW courses.

My OW instructor was a cave diver, so I heard a lot about the dangers of overhead environments in my OW course. Tracy is an OW instructor, and shows all her OW students "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die". And then makes them watch it again in AOW.

There's only one place in Vermont (a flooded marble quarry) where there's substantial overhead easily available to OW divers, but there has been a death there within the last few years. Even far from cave country, there are plenty of wrecks, quarries and other places to get into trouble in the overhead.

I am guessing that some OW instructors are quite emphatic about the dangers of overhead environments, and that others just mention it briefly if at all. "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die" is explicit and compelling, and ought to be part of every diver's basic training.

Mike

[RN]

All this, along with the Vortex thread has given me an idea. If you do catch an OW diver coming out of a cave, ask them for their C-card, and get the name of the OW instructor. Report the instructor to his/her agency for failure to convince their students about the dangers of overhead, and the need for specialized training. If all instructors, and training agencies *emphasized" the dangers, and the need for training, the occurences of this would diminish.

In state parks, do the same thing, by going to the ranger station, report them, and ask for the name of the instructor, and agency. It wouldn't hurt for the park to do the same thing.

I don't think the OW agencies would care because it's not a standards violation...unfortunately.

FWIW, since I moved to Florida, I make all my OW students watch "Deceptively Easy..." and the Rescue 911 episode with Woody Jasper. By the time they're done watching those videos, going into an overhead environment is the farthest thing from their minds.

[JMB2262]

All this, along with the Vortex thread has given me an idea. If you do catch an OW diver coming out of a cave, ask them for their C-card, and get the name of the OW instructor. Report the instructor to his/her agency for failure to convince their students about the dangers of overhead, and the need for specialized training. If all instructors, and training agencies *emphasized" the dangers, and the need for training, the occurences of this would diminish.

In state parks, do the same thing, by going to the ranger station, report them, and ask for the name of the instructor, and agency. It wouldn't hurt for the park to do the same thing.

Amen! As an open water instructor and a certified cave diver, I would applaud you--even it was to report one of my students! Some of my students know I cave dive and have asked me to teach them. I tell them of the dangers, tell them that I am NOT a cave diving instructor, and give them the names of cave diving instructors. Since, I don't live where there are caves, this does not seem like an issue for me, but I love the idea.

[chilldive]

I was diving at Catfish earlier this year. As we were hauling gear to the sink, I noticed 3 kids, probably around 12 or 13 entering the spring. Their parents were there, but were not diving, just watching.

As usual, we were getting lots of questions from the parents about our gear and what we were doing and why we needed so much gear. From their questions, they had no knowledge of cave diving. I mentioned we were going to dive in the cave. Their next question was "you mean there's a cave in this spring!?" Their kids were diving just like you'd expect to see kids playing in a pool. They were up and down, and weren't even sticking together. One was at the bottom stirring it all up and the other came up to tattle tell about it.

These people were obviously locals, but didn't seem to know a thing about cave diving. I could see those kids easily wanting to follow us after we went in and their parents wouldn't have had a clue. That's scary.