What we should really be glad about is that they didn't just go with the original plan... "NO diving". That can happen again if we push too much!Originally Posted by Marc Bryan
Remember, it was *cave divers* that requested the grate, so we would have access to Devil's Eye. It was cave divers that installed the grate in the first place.
Well, what a nasty little can of worms I seem to have help open. Sorry, Forrest.
OK, I don't like the grate. I don't like what happened at Morrison. It happened before 80% of you guys were born/or diving/or had stopped spreading your food on the walls with your feet.
It is easy to sit around and second guess anything. There were those that argued against the grate when it happened. The grate was a compromise. The whole damn campground is a nightmare to most anyone that remembers how it was to dive Jenny and Devils in the 1970's. Learn to live with it. I have.
I remember when Mr Graves was given the choice to blow Morrison shut. It happened a long time ago. I was certified to dive in 1967, and the third cave was open. IT WAS NO MOUNT. 95% of you guys would not have gone in there anyhow. You had to push your tank in front of you, in Morrison's flow, with a 6 volt light..... There was a sign at Morrison that kept a running total of the people that drowned. It was well over 20. The sheriff gave Mr Graves 2 options. Close the springs to diving, or shut the third cave. And then, a few years later, a flood took away his store and house.
When I mentioned a long dive with a hacksaw, I was being sarcastic. PLEASE do not ever take anything I post as serious. I was only serious when I suggested using 12 ton hydraulic jacks to enlarge the lips.(I think 6 or so would do it). Here is what you do, and what I have done.......
DO NOT GO TO GINNE SPRINGS!!!! If you don't like it, stay the hell away. Do not enrich them by contributing your money. As much as I dislike it, Bob Wray voted with his wallet. I was outvoted. He wins.
"Have you ever noticed
When you're feeling really good
There's always a pigeon
That'll come shiat on your hood?" John Prine 4-7-2020
"Into the blue again; in the silent water
Under the rocks, and stones; there is water underground" Talking Heads
I am glad about it. That is the reason I follow all of the rules, whether I like them or not, and not just the rules I feel are appropriate. If more divers did this, maybe there would be less discussion of no diving allowed!
I am aware that it was "some" cave divers that requested and installed the grate. I actually have no issue with it at all. I was just stating that at least they didn't go crazy and permanently seal the thing with dynamite, so that there would be no reversing the decision if some reason some day warranted it.
I will now go back to my 10 years of lurking, and one post every 3 years schedule.
I guess you haven't been there recently. The Lips is about twice as high as it once was. You can scooter through there now. I remember having to stop the scooter, and push it through the Lips. Both entrances are also much larger. I remember having to wriggle through both the Ear, and the restriction in the Eye.
Our very presence in a cave vandalizes it. Even if you don't ever touch any part of a cave, your bubbles erode the ceiling, and your light disturbs the cave organisms. If you doubt this, go to Ginnie (the ballroom) and look up at the ceiling, or just stand and look at the floor of the headpool. There were never any bubbles coming up through the limestone in the early '70s. GSO has to remove a pile of limestone debris off the floor of the cavern every few years because of the damage our bubbles do to the roof.
I dove Little Hart Sunday, I decided not to follow the line but instead follow the stakes hammered in the walls (resembled those at Peacock and others) with survey tape flying from them.
Why is this conversation never had in the caving community?
If you mean "dry" caving community, trust me it is!
You should read the rules for doing Lechuguilla.
I am very familiar with them...However, there does not seem to be the same "outrage" in the caving community as the cave diving community reagarding digging, exploring, etc.
In the last NSS News, there was even an article retracted by the editor regarding this type of "outrage".
those in the know-!
It would be interesting to hear what WS has to say about all this-? He was employed by Ginnie for a long time & also has vast knowledge of the Ballroom's geography. Maybe he'll pick up on this thread & enlighten us-!
Wes................>your input please.
TY
^_^
JE
ps: enjoyed seeing your broadcasts on PBS recently, very informative.
Last edited by JE; 11-05-2008 at 11:54 AM.
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