Don't take a DPV where you haven't swam before ?

[ARY]

We swam it even that i knew it was a bad idea and we already had scooters at that time. And still think it is kinda stupid to risk getting a hypercapnia back 3000' for what? To find that you scooter twice faster than walk? To find that i need 120 cuft to swim out from there? It is not worse it. But i appreciate the help of kind friends Reggie and Max who placed bottles for us at Roller Coaster. It saved us a setup dive. We did 32% but at the far end i was sorry i didn't fill it 21/35.

[saturation]

We swam it even that i knew it was a bad idea and we already had scooters at that time. And still think it is kinda stupid to risk getting a hypercapnia back 3000' for what? To find that you scooter twice faster than walk? To find that i need 120 cuft to swim out from there? It is not worse it. But i appreciate the help of kind friends Reggie and Max who placed bottles for us at Roller Coaster. It saved us a setup dive. We did 32% but at the far end i was sorry i didn't fill it 21/35.

I wrote a reply to your buddy, Tom, about the attempt. If you risk getting hypercapnia, running out of gas, cramping, etc., its likely one is working too hard to get there.

There is no rush to get there, but the penalty will be deco. Scooters will outswim swimmers anyday, so speed is not the issue, but to figure a procedure to do it safely without it.

[saturation]

Seriously, if you want to do big dives solo with a scooter, you need to do some spreadsheet work, and to have reasonable measures of your swim, scooter and flow speeds in the cave you're penetrating. This stuff is too serious to be using silly rules of thumb that don't work.

Or what the hell. Swim it, and use that overconfidence to think you're OK now.

Frankly I'm done with swimming. I'll happily go do Manatee waaaaay past where I could ever swim... when I find someone to do it with

HI Andrew,

And this is exactly what we did. On a single scooter each, and knowing our real gas consumption rates, we planned push into Manatee, and got to about 3500' or so, not sure because the distance markings are a bit unclear, but at least beyond the well casing with Larry Green's name on it. We also spent some scooter time looking for a room we didn't find, but the gist was I had planned for a scooter failure on the return, and that I would swim the remaining distance out based on our gas consumption. My scooter stopped outbound just before Friedman's sink, so it was just a 1000' or so to be towed. But the confidence to do that all scooter dive, and we plan for more later, was given to us by being able to swim to the Henkel, safely.

Which brings us to the issue of swimming. After a year of scootering, I noticed I no longer had the same ability to swim as well as I did before the scooter. It did not help my gas consumption rate and I was more prone to cramps in far easier dives. So, after my last cave trip in November, I have stopped using the scooter except as needed, and returned to much more swimming.

[Line Squirrel]

Which brings us to the issue of swimming. After a year of scootering, I noticed I no longer had the same ability to swim as well as I did before the scooter. It did not help my gas consumption rate and I was more prone to cramps in far easier dives. So, after my last cave trip in November, I have stopped using the scooter except as needed, and returned to much more swimming.

Back in my o/w days I did a ton of Aggressor Liveaboards, 2-3 annually. One boat, The Bay Islands Aggressor had scooters for rent. The captain of the boat used one on everydive he made...he was also the ummm, heaviest captain by far out of all of them

[rjack]

If you follow their rules of redudnancy, you won't go wrong. They take spare scooters, stash spare gas, etc.

I guess that's what I was getting at. Up to a point swimming out is fine (call it "A"). From then on its increasingly risky depending on the day. And then there's a point where swimming out is just not gonna happen (call that "B").

I see some of these swimming workup efforts as an effort to understand the gray zone between A and B. Fair enough. But when you scooter in, then drop the scooter and swim, when do you know if you've swam across "B"?

Rather than keep pushing, getting closer to "B" on any given day, I <think> I would prefer to just start planning like you are going beyond "B" way earlier. Like shortly after "A". Skip the whole progressively try out the grey zone dealio.

I'm still a huge advocate for progressive penetration, just not with swimming in your back pocket much beyond "A". Cause I don't ever want a "hail mary" kinda dive coming back from just short of "B" with 50psi remaining.

[aainslie]

Which brings us to the issue of swimming. After a year of scootering, I noticed I no longer had the same ability to swim as well as I did before the scooter. It did not help my gas consumption rate and I was more prone to cramps in far easier dives. So, after my last cave trip in November, I have stopped using the scooter except as needed, and returned to much more swimming.

I definitely agree with this one. I rarely do a pure scooter dive, but I do like using it to get to places that might be hard to reach otherwise. A healthy swim after dropping the scooter is a lot of fun and good for the SAC in the long run.

[MengTze]

....A healthy swim after dropping the scooter is a lot of fun and good for the SAC in the long run.

You could take up running for that.........

[Cindy]

I swam it per the suggestion of my past cave diving instructor. His stand still is that no one should scotter anyplace you haven't swam first. I don't always follow that rule but I can see the value in what he was saying. James Hurley and I did a set up for the dive with two stages. I almost over did it. James could swim like a fish! When we turned I had 2/3 of my backgas left. Out of curiousity I swam out on back gas, picking up my stages but not using them. I still had about 500 psi left in my backgas. It was reassuring and a good lesson on sac rate, breathing, safety and swim techniques. Cindy

[Rubis]

I scootered it the first time, but there are plenty of other caves that I swam first.
I guess YMMV.
If you just got your scooter cert, it is better to get accustomed to scootering first, learn the cave by swimming, how much gas is needed, etc etc ...
One thing that needs to be said about caves with flow, is that if you swim it first, you will learn how to stay out of the flow. Then when you scooter, you follow the same path and you earn valuable minutes.
On the other hand, if you have already experience with cave diving and scootering, you will be able to stay out of the flow as well and you know how much gas you need anyways.
So you don't really need to swim it first (Plus for big dives, you build in some level of redundancy, extra gas, back-up scooters, etc ...)

I guess the advice "swim it first" applies well to the people that just got their scooter card.

I would love to swim it now, especially if I had plenty of time to spend down in cave country. I would love to get to the point of swimming to the Hinkle in less than 45 minutes, with a set of double 85s, and not even reaching thirds.
That probably would improve my skills quite a bit

When I got my scooter I wanted to scooter all the time. Now that I dive CCR and time is not an issue, I really enjoy swimming in a cave, taking my time and poking around.

[MengTze]

...... I would love to get to the point of swimming to the Hinkle in less than 45 minutes, with a set of double 85s, and not even reaching thirds.
That probably would improve my skills quite a bit ..

I think we know a guy who probably could......(and has). Say hello for me will you?