More Cave Damage at Ginnie's Devil's System

[Arnold Mesiser]

that simply don't care or don't know any better.

i think you nailed that one unfortunately.cave register and or submittal of a proposed cave dive plan might help.imho educational signage is not lost on all.

i still say at a minimum...membership in nss and nss cds or nacd coupled with a year probation where the diver would have to have participated in cleanups/education seminars/project grunt work before allowed to dive sites ie prove they care ..well other than those designated for training.hardcore yes but many rare and intact wrecks have severe pre requisites and they have a lifetime that is but a small blip on the lifetime of a cave and the rare formations etc.while many feel it is a right to explore i once again say it is not a ballpark we are talking about.rather a rare resource that takes 1000 of years to form.

and yes when i trained i was taken in various systems but i would have happily agreed to a prove you care about the caves probationary timeframe.at least back then most training were looking to learn how to explore/map and many systems were not shared until someone was known better or someone vouched for them...much like the very much more informed dry caving realm.

while i expect flames for this post . i worry that if something large does not change...caves will be closed for all which would be a huge loss.i hope you all can find some way to stop this horrid defacement going on.

ps i apologize for my typing.i am operating the net under sedation and devious medical bondage devices are applied.

[novadiver]

Disturbed bottom with fin marks sounds like a diver in distress. It could be accidental damage. which would make it unavoidable.

[timle]

Yeah its funny. If you read alot of these damage response threads you would think many of these divers have never touched the cave on accident much less on purpose (pull and glide). Then you turn around and read trip reports and people talk about beat up fingers from pulling and gliding.

So which is it - do you touch nothing but water? Or do you like most of us pull and glide in high flow utilizing points that look rubbed clean already?

So utilizing the same pull and glide spots for 30 years. What about 30 years ago? Its my understanding that us newbies are poorly trained and don't respect the cave. You mean pull and glide was done by the masters in virgin cave? Shocking! How about the fin tip push on the ceiling in "blueprint"?

Personally I don't think its a systemic problem. Of course I'm biased I'm a new cave diver, but I think my instructor did a good job talking about cave conservation. Even if he didn't I think the average idiot knows that ripping up the cave is bad. I think its probably a few bad apples in the bunch. Unfortunately the caves are quite fragile and a few bad apples can do alot of damage.

[JDostal]

Pull and glide isn't bad, it just has to be used with common sense. Common sense would tell someone to gently use a solid outcrop of rock to pull and not act like a roto-rooter in a clay floor

Heck, when I did my full cave in Missouri, I did TERRIBLE on my first day because I was so afraid to touch the cave. You have to hold onto stuff in certain caves or sections of them, otherwise you just aren't moving. During one dive, I literally had to bury both of my hands/arms in a gravel floor and I *still* was getting drug out of the cave. To get into Roubidoux, you grab onto whatever you can, press the back of your head against the ceiling and generally try to contact the entrance as much as you can while crawling in. But once you get in...don't touch the fragile stuff.

[cinder4320]

So my husband and I were talking and along the same lines of cave conservation and had a question. We did the night dive at Peacock Springs on New Years Eve. On the exit past the peanut tunnel, we noticed the glow stick innards all along the gold line area. My husband even found a piece of broken glow stick in the cavern. As we exited and commented on the "accident" and how it wasn't good but had looked kinda cool (still assuming it was an accident), someone mentioned the "Galaxy Dive".

Further research and from posts on this very forum and we realized the components of glow sticks were purposefully dispersed both at Peacock and Ginnie for the "cool" effect. This was cavers doing this on purpose. How is adding possibly harmful chemicals considered okay??

The Average Joe Blow might stop and think dumping chemicals into groundwater is bad but wouldn't think touching rock or clay in a passage was. Am I missing something in thinking that if we as a community believe in cave conservation it should be at all times and not forgotten because something looks cool or fun.

Miranda

[Sludge]

dumping chemicals into groundwater is bad

Not to mention the fact that dihydrogen monoxide has been found in every spring, lake, and river in Florida.

[Line Squirrel]

Not to mention the fact that dihydrogen monoxide has been found in every spring, lake, and river in Florida.

So has dinosaur pee...seriously, I read a very interesting and amusing article about this several years back. It was more a theory but well written. I need to try and find it to post.

But I digress...back to the "other hijack" about glow sticks. I was in the Peanut tunnel just three days ago and saw something sparkling like a diamond. Closer observation, it was a broken ampule from a glow stick.

PS Sludge...you're all wet, lol

[aainslie]

Not to mention the fact that dihydrogen monoxide has been found in every spring, lake, and river in Florida.

!!

[MORGAN]

So has dinosaur pee...

I seem to remember from my biology classes that all of the water on the planet has been through someone's (or something's) kidneys at least once!

Mike

[Ken Hill]

Not to mention the fact that dihydrogen monoxide has been found in every spring, lake, and river in Florida.

These guys are good, but you guys are funnier! Video says it all. /K

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw