More Cave Damage at Ginnie's Devil's System

[Gary]

I think this is fairly recent or at least the first time I've taken note of it. The black shell rock covering the floor from about 1900-2100' has been torn up off the floor exposing clay and the clay now marked with fin and drag marks. Looks like swimmers have attempted to pull and glide thru this area for a couple hundred feet with heavy damage.

[Mike Edmonston]

I think this is fairly recent or at least the first time I've taken note of it. The black shell rock covering the floor from about 1900-2100' has been torn up off the floor exposing clay and the clay now marked with fin and drag marks. Looks like swimmers have attempted to pull and glide thru this area for a couple hundred feet with heavy damage.

Lovely, just lovely!

I'm waiting for everyone to post about breaking eggs to make an omelette, and that it's ok to dig in the clay in the name of exploration!

Unbelievable!

Leave bubbles, take pictures, and kill nothing but time! What the hell happened to that? Don't they teach it anymore? or is it now, Carry more stages, grab rocks till the break and dig through the clay to get through!

Whatever, you guys know my position on this!

[skip]

Lovely, just lovely!

Leave (nothing but) bubbles, take (nothing but) pictures, and kill nothing but time!

and touch nothing but water!

it's not rocket science, so what is going on? who are these people? how do we get the message across? I vote for signs that explain the natural fragile beauty of the world you are about to enter.

"This spring connects to an underwater cave system. Please respect the natural fragile beauty of the world you are about to visit. Treat it with kindness and respect. Please stay on paths, dive in designated areas, leave no marks, and please put your litter in provided receptacles. Divers please maintain proper buoyancy, refrain from pull and glide, follow proper line etiquette. Above all, please remember your credo: Leave nothing but bubbles, take nothing but memories, kill nothing but time, and please add: touch nothing but water. -Thank You"

Perhaps also adding a guest sign-in book in a kiosk may help satisfy those who must let the world know that they've been here.

-skip

[Mike Edmonston]

Perhaps also adding a guest sign-in book in a kiosk may help satisfy those who must let the world know that they've been here.

-skip

That's actually not a bad idea at all. I have seen very ornamented sign in books at some new-mexico caves (dry), and some trails in Scotland. People seem to get very creative in those books.

Also, I'm all for the sign.

[curtschu]

Since when did pull and glide become a no no?

[Daedalus]

Pulling on the same sturdy walls in the same place people have been pulling for 30 years is different than pulling on a nearly untouched floor and pulling it up. If I remember correctly, this place has a lot of black and tan rocks tiling the floor like a tortoise shell, each one having interesting patterns on it. Very sad if it has been damaged.

[timle]

Yeah its funny. If you read alot of these damage response threads you would think many of these divers have never touched the cave on accident much less on purpose (pull and glide). Then you turn around and read trip reports and people talk about beat up fingers from pulling and gliding.

So which is it - do you touch nothing but water? Or do you like most of us pull and glide in high flow utilizing points that look rubbed clean already?

So utilizing the same pull and glide spots for 30 years. What about 30 years ago? Its my understanding that us newbies are poorly trained and don't respect the cave. You mean pull and glide was done by the masters in virgin cave? Shocking! How about the fin tip push on the ceiling in "blueprint"?

Personally I don't think its a systemic problem. Of course I'm biased I'm a new cave diver, but I think my instructor did a good job talking about cave conservation. Even if he didn't I think the average idiot knows that ripping up the cave is bad. I think its probably a few bad apples in the bunch. Unfortunately the caves are quite fragile and a few bad apples can do alot of damage.

[MengTze]

.....
it's not rocket science, so what is going on? who are these people?

The attention alone attracts..........

'Isn't it great to read the emotions, anger and scurrying around by investigators to find the perpetrators?' "Look DIC, I now too have a posse after me and my signs are deeper into the cave" "What's your next move PULGA?"

This community wears their hearts on their sleeves, and maybe still thinks mankind is inherently good...........

[wingman]

I think this is fairly recent or at least the first time I've taken note of it. The black shell rock covering the floor from about 1900-2100' has been torn up off the floor exposing clay and the clay now marked with fin and drag marks. Looks like swimmers have attempted to pull and glide thru this area for a couple hundred feet with heavy damage.

Hey Gary...actually sitting at devils at the moment...went by this area yesterday and today looking for the damage. I must say i do see some areas where the rock is broken and some brown clay exposed for about 10 feet or so...spent some time scootering back and forth in the area of the sweet surprise jump and the entire area where that black bubbly rock is. While there is damage here and there it did not look recent or significantly different from what i was familiar with. Bill

[aainslie]

Hey Gene, no offence taken. I really do agree with your point, quite strongly. And Terry knows I disagree with him on this.

Regards,

Andrew