Election nss

[Kelly Jessop]

Perhaps the NSS should reach out to the CDS members and make a concerted effort to engage them. .

Slightly counter intuitive. NSS is the larger organization that the CDS asked to become a member of. We chose to be part of the NSS family. Honestly, we either need to be part of the NSS and support their mission, or leave the NSS and form a new cave diving organization, similar to the NACD. This is why in earlier comments I have said, without the NSS we are the NACD. If the CDS leadership can't see value in an affiliation with the NSS, then more likely the membership will have the same point of view. Please note Joe, I may not share the same opinion as you, but I have huge respect for you, and thank you again for helping the CDS during some dark days.

[JoeyP]

Slightly counter intuitive. NSS is the larger organization that the CDS asked to become a member of. We chose to be part of the NSS family. Honestly, we either need to be part of the NSS and support their mission, or leave the NSS and form a new cave diving organization, similar to the NACD. This is why in earlier comments I have said, without the NSS we are the NACD. If the CDS leadership can't see value in an affiliation with the NSS, then more likely the membership will have the same point of view. Please note Joe, I may not share the same opinion as you, but I have huge respect for you, and thank you again for helping the CDS during some dark days.

That huge respect is mutual Kelly. You gave me a lot of much needed guidance when I was chair. I thank you for that.

My idea is that the NSS should woo the CDS only members so they are no longer this mystical figure in the shadows and have a real presence in the world of CDS members, especially the newer, younger ones. Also, the notion that the CDS wanted to leave the NSS is not true. No one wanted that. What we did want was to become more financially stable and to increase our numbers. That seems to be the case here so why not capitalize on the increased numbers and make them want to be NSS members instead of forcing them. The CDS was and is part of the NSS family. All we are doing now is taking in a few foster children that we may some day adopt

In the end I think we are on different sides of the same coin.

[MikeT]

NSS is the larger organization that the CDS asked to become a member of. We chose to be part of the NSS family. Honestly, we either need to be part of the NSS and support their mission, or leave the NSS and form a new cave diving organization, similar to the NACD. This is why in earlier comments I have said, without the NSS we are the NACD.

Possibly the most important quote of the thread.

[JJKJR]

I've read this post, all 10 pages of it with interest because as was said by a previous poster the NSS should woo CDS members. Maybe woo is too strong of a word but certainly the NSS should make us CDS Members feel a part of the larger whole of the NSS. I know there are business reasons why the CDS should be part of the NSS but how about the reasons for the CDS members themselves.

Here's my NSS story. Maybe others have experienced the same. When I first started diving I was a member of the NSS-CDS. Each year when I would receive the current membership catalog I would see dry caver members with all sorts of awards listed next to their names. So when I received my Abe Davis Award on my next renewal I informed the NSS that I had received this award and could they please include it in next years membership catalog. Well, it wasn't included that year, or the next year or the one after that. After the third failed attempt I called the NSS. They told me that they would never include a cave diver's award BECAUSE it wasn't a NSS sanctioned award. They only recognize NSS awards NOT CDS awards. I quit the NSS the following year because it was obvious to me the NSS didn't recognize the cave diving section.

So as a current CDS Member, my comment to our board members new and old is to raise concerns like this to the NSS. Maybe CDS members like me would join back with the NSS if they gave us the same level of acknowledgement as the dry cavers receive.

[Kelly Jessop]

.

Here's my NSS story. Maybe others have experienced the same. When I first started diving I was a member of the NSS-CDS. Each year when I would receive the current membership catalog I would see dry caver members with all sorts of awards listed next to their names. So when I received my Abe Davis Award on my next renewal I informed the NSS that I had received this award and could they please include it in next years membership catalog. Well, it wasn't included that year, or the next year or the one after that. After the third failed attempt I called the NSS. They told me that they would never include a cave diver's award BECAUSE it wasn't a NSS sanctioned award. They only recognize NSS awards NOT CDS awards. I quit the NSS the following year because it was obvious to me the NSS didn't recognize the cave diving section.

.

Funny you mentioned this. When I chaired the CDS I spent time with the NSS, and one of the things I asked about was getting CDS awards included in the member's manual. Not only is there Abe Davis etc, but there are conservation award, outstanding service award, cartography award etc. I did get an answer back, and the reason was that with 100+ grottos, sections , affinity groups, many have awards, and they can't include all of them. So they deal with the NSS awards, which the CDS used to be very proactive in nominating their members for these awards. I can't remember the last time a CDS member got a Fellow of the Society recognition, which I can think of several people who are deserving. I think at one time when the CDS had their member's manual we used to put the award levels in ( or should have) but the CDS hasn't done a member's manual in 10 years.

[Sly-vester]

Personally I cannot vote to put TJ on the NSS board if (as JoeyP says) he would put the CDS interests ahead of the NSS.

Well, the term "low-information voter" comes to mind, so let me help you out. I am on the board of CDS which means I am supposed to do what is in the best interest of the board I am on, that's the way boards work. My position is the liaison between the NSS and the CDS, and I have regular contact with the NSS as matter of fact I brought the president of the NSS to speak at the CDS board meeting tonight. My strategy has been trying to unite the two organizations despite negativity from internet trolls. I would usually ignore this but I find this post so egregiously misformed that I'm worried there might be more of you so consider it a community service. Let me cover a couple of your concerns.

And I will say that I'm surprised that the phrase "limited to a year or less on this status." can somehow be stretched to allow unlimited annual renewals. Seriously?"

-The President of the NSS interprets it the same way, at his own grotto(Bear Grotto) they have a non-NSS membership that they allow to renew. The reasoning it's better to have people involved in cave safety, conservation, social activities etc. They do not feel it is wise that after a year you kick them out where the NSS doesn't have access to them anymore if they don't go to a full membership. The rationale being if they stick around they will eventually become full members with the support of the rest of the grotto. I would agree with this rationale.

(I really don't think the interests are all that divergent, but seemingly some of the CDS leadership is focused more on CDS membership and money rather than the benefits of the caving community. Cave divers may feel that they are not really part of the caving community, but they are.)

The president of NSS is very happy with the success of the CDS only membership and plans something similar for the NSS. What is good for the CDS is good for the NSS, you are right. Growing the CDS by over 20% in a year is huge, and now we have a fertile pool of prospective full members for the NSS. This is kind of big-picture thinking I know but stay with me.

As far as the interest of the NSS, I did successfully litigate a suit on behalf of the NSS, against a municipality and WAL-MART to protect Mill Creek Preserve(maybe you missed it). There are now permanent covenants on the land and no gas station is being put above the aquifer. Now there are conservation easements as well as the neighboring parcels being locked down by SRWMD. There is even retrofitting to manage the runoff for the development that's already there.
Maybe you should ask the City of Alachua or WAL-MART if I was looking out for the interest of the NSS.

So now I have a question for you. What cave conservation projects you currently working on BIGDAVE?

I know you won't vote for me but could I suggest.
John Brooks
Kim Flieshmann
Nathan Farrar

[Kelly Jessop]

TJ I wish you success with your role in the NSS if it comes to fruition, and if not possibly consider helping in another role. I also wish to show appreciation to all out going CDS board members in a few days, and the new ones coming in. This discussion on the thread has been civil, and informative, no matter how a person feels about the organizations. Caving and cave diving is always under attack with us losing site access and meeting other restrictions. These organizations have done a lot to help, and am very appreciative there have been a group people with like minded goals and ambitions to protect a sport we appreciate.

[bigdave]

TJ - interesting post. This is the first time I have been called a troll, but I've been called worse. Given that I joined this forum in 2004 and that I do post on other topics, it is difficult to argue that I meet the definition of a troll. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
Should you or anybody else actually be interested in who I am and some of my diving history (which I seriously doubt), please PM me and I'll provide the boring details.

TJ - THANK YOU, THANK YOU, and THANK YOU for all of the things you have done to protect and advance cave diving. Seriously, it is time consuming and without much payoff other than personal satisfaction. You've done a lot, and you deserve thanks. As far as what I've done, I can't offer up anything. I've had some personal challenges that again I don't imagine anybody is interested in. BTW BIGDAVE is a nick name that some of my friend use for me. My first name is David.

Back on topic, I'm an old school (literally) guy and to me words mean what they say. IMO the phrase "limited to a year or less on this status." is not readily interpreted to become unlimited years in this status. If that was the intent of the BOG, the phrase should not have been codified into the by-laws in the first place. IMO by-laws should be followed or changed. It is interesting that you mention the NSS President, as I was just looking at the May issue of NSS News. (Great magazine, by the way.) There is a section titled "President's Message", and it discusses grotto leadership, membership, and how to grow a grotto. The President lists 10 programs or efforts that he considers to be successful in growing a grotto. A lower priced grotto membership without NSS membership is not on that list.

(Also in that issue - good news Kelly, on page 24 there is an article about IT and at long last that DOS-based database is going away!)

Being an engineer, I like to have numbers and documents. The hope expressed here is that the junior members (or NSSCDS-only members) will become NSS members down the road. So that leads me to some questions. Are there any records showing how many junior NSSCDS members have joined the NSS? Is there a plan on the part of either the NSS or the NSSCDS to convert these members to NSS membership? For example, at some point will the NSSCDS website offer an option for joint membership? Will the NSSCDS suggest joining the NSS when renewals are sent out for those members? Will the NSSCDS allow the NSS to solicit these members?

It does not seem likely to me that NSSCDS members will join the NSS out of the blue without some sort of campaign or encouragement.

I hope you may take some of the above into consideration. Should you win your seat on the BOG I will offer my congratulations and support.

Tonight I will reread the platform statements, and cast my low-information vote.

Cheers!
David H.

[Sly-vester]

Dave,
With the generous inclusive interpretation of the bylaws as far as non-NSS members I think it?s incumbent upon the sections and grottos to show value in full membership with the NSS and help communicate the mission of the NSS. As far as promoting the non-NSS memberships the NSS the grottoes nor the CDS will advertise the non-NSS memberships. We are not actively promoting them, although this thread has certainly got the word out. Again personally I feel everyone should be full members and remember I voted against the bylaw change. Unfortunately right now we are a dying breed and if we don?t change the way we think and attract new members and grow the next generation of conservationist and cave divers this organization will die with us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kelly Jessop]

I think it?s incumbent upon the sections and grottos to show value in full membership with the NSS and help communicate the mission of the NSS.

This is good in theory,but it is imperative the leadership of these grottos and sections see value in it and understand the main organization to be able to communicate this value. Rarely have CDS board members attended the national convention. participated in COG (if they know what this acronym means) etc. Rarely, if ever do you see in the platform statement of someone running for the board, I want to develop a better relationship with the NSS and help the CDS grow within their umbrella. If you in your role with the NSS are able to develop a relationship, then that will be truly remarkable. The uphill climb is that we are trained as divers, and not as cavers, so we identify with the diving part of the equation, not the caving. Hence we are divers who enter caves. Honestly I don't see a lot of change occurring because we as an organization don't want to change, I get it. The demise of the NACD, where unfortunate, was not without prediction for so many reasons beyond the scope of this thread, but at least knowing the CDS has some affiliation with a larger organization, I have comfort in knowing the CDS may have some longevity. Pity, the CDS has the potential of out living the sport, at least in Florida.