Election nss

[rddvet]

I too have almost zero interest in dry caving but I prefer that CDS is part of NSS and I don?t mind supporting their general conservation and exploration efforts. Given that memership dues are on the order of a gas fill or two, not what all the hoopla about memership dues are about.

I agree. The cost is pretty much negligible. Getting a magazine bothers me the most as its wasteful to send me one. I will see about getting it stopped. I was mainly revealing an opposite opinion of what someone commented on.


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[Kelly Jessop]

Dry cave conservation is cool, but I'd prefer my conservation money to go elsewhere if it could.

Ironically the NSS and CDS have reached out to each other with conservation. Cave diving projects for conservation have appeared in NSS News ( too bad nobody reads them and throws them away), and the NSS has some interest in a couple cave diving cave repairs, and want that to appear as a chapter when the Cave Restoration book goes to reprint.

To me it is caves, mutually exclusive if it is wet or dry. The biggest problem is we get our training from diving agencies not a cave agency like the CDG, so we identify ourselves as divers not cavers. Honestly if we did identify as cavers we probably wouldn't have the cave damage issues we have.

Getting a magazine bothers me the most as its wasteful to send me one

It is too bad the NSS eliminated the basic membership we once had, which was no magazine, and a lower cost dues. I understand why they did it,but perhaps TJ in his new role if he wins, can persuade the NSS to bring it back. For me, I get the electronic version of the NSS News for the same reason other people have commented in this thread.

[FW]

A little history. When cave diving first became popular in Florida, a group of cave divers got together and formed a group, called the NACD. For the most part, they were open water divers that just happened to swim into caves. A few of the members wanted to know more about caves, so they might be able to predict where to find new leads. Sheck Exley joined the NSS, so he could learn more about caves. He found out that there were other cave divers that were NSS members. Many of those early NSS cave divers predated the NACD. Some like me were both "dry" cavers, ans sump divers.

When the NSS first started having "sections" of like minded cavers, Sheck asked to form a Cave Diving Section. The biggest advantage of the CDS being part of the NSS is all their knowledge of caves applies equally to wet, and "dry" caves.

[jlillest]

It is too bad the NSS eliminated the basic membership we once had, which was no magazine, and a lower cost dues.

Like I mentioned above, there is still a basic membership in the NSS. They eliminated a couple of other membership types, but not this one. It's $40 per year with no magazine, versus $50 for regular membership. Though it used to be cheaper, they increased dues on basic members by more than 30% the last dues increase versus less than 10% on regulars.

[Kelly Jessop]

Like I mentioned above, there is still a basic membership in the NSS. They eliminated a couple of other membership types, but not this one. It's $40 per year with no magazine, versus $50 for regular membership. Though it used to be cheaper, they increased dues on basic members by more than 30% the last dues increase versus less than 10% on regulars.

You are right. The original basic membership was no magazines, and was a very nominal fee. Perry, for the NSS really petitioned to eliminate this, and reduce the membership levels. Unfortunately this slipped by the CDS, and we got the membership levels we have now. At one time the NSS software was severely out of date (heard they were using DOS type software), and it was difficult to handle the membership levels, but with the software now, no problem. The CDS representing such a large percent of the NSS membership could petition to bring this back.

[JoeyP]

"C. IOs may, at their option, have members who are not members of the NSS and who are limited to a year or less on this status."

The one year limited membership complies with this. It says nothing about having to become an NSS member after a year and it says nothing about not being able to renew that limited membership.

Anyway, I think the NSS is a worthwhile organization and the CDS does and should support it. I also think that the NSS puts its needs first (as it should - think "we have a building to pay for when the CDS asked for help with not raising NSS dues to its members - I understand those kinds of decisions) and like wise, I think the CDS board should put CDS needs first. As its fiduciary's, it is their responsibility to make decisions based on what is best for the CDS.

With the (sad) demise of the NACD, the CDS was / is in a position to pick up some of their membership, many of whom did not want to join the NSS-CDS because NACD was cheaper or because they had no interest in dry caves. I know that sounds silly but we've all heard that comment at one time or another. I think it is better to have these folks at least partially in the fold than to ignore them. Over time I'm sure some of them will change their minds. Better to do that with education and exposure than by what they might perceive as coercion.

I think the more we debate this the more both sides will dig their heels in. I don't see either side changing its position and ultimately the CDS belongs to its members and this was their decision.

[Sly-vester]

Many other grottos and sections have non-NSS memberships that are allowed to renew. The reasoning that I received from the NSS is "That it's better to have them participating in cave conservation and contributing to their local grotto then to force them out of their social circle where we(The NSS) will have no access to them." When something is working you do not try to fix it. This has been a wake-up call that we needed a lower priced option and we missed an entire market/opportunity.

[Kelly Jessop]

I think the more we debate this the more both sides will dig their heels in. I don't see either side changing its position and ultimately the CDS belongs to its members and this was their decision.

Sadly I think you are right.
I am not reading item C how the CDS is interpreting it. If the NSS is fine with it, and the CDS has a loop hole, go for it. The biggest negative is CDS' tremendous majority in things like COG etc will be diluted, but then again we rarely participate, who cares.

[JoeyP]

Sadly I think you are right.
I am not reading item C how the CDS is interpreting it. If the NSS is fine with it, and the CDS has a loop hole, go for it. The biggest negative is CDS' tremendous majority in things like COG etc will be diluted, but then again we rarely participate, who cares.

Perhaps the NSS should reach out to the CDS members and make a concerted effort to engage them. Make it obvious that they are getting something tangible in return for their dues. You can't see or feel conservation efforts so people tend to dismiss it but they'll love you forever if you buy them a hot dog and sponsor some cave diving related clinics or workshops. It's just human nature.

[bigdave]

Anyway, I think the NSS is a worthwhile organization and the CDS does and should support it. I also think that the NSS puts its needs first (as it should - think "we have a building to pay for when the CDS asked for help with not raising NSS dues to its members - I understand those kinds of decisions) and like wise, I think the CDS board should put CDS needs first. As its fiduciary's, it is their responsibility to make decisions based on what is best for the CDS.

Which brings us back to the original point of this thread:

Those of us who are members of the NSS have received an Email for the annual election.
If you have scrolled through the names of candidates you would have noticed that one of our current CDS BOD Member , TJ Muller, is one of the candidates.
TJ has been the liaison between the NSS and the CDS for several years. This would make a great fit for the CDS to have a person like TJ on the BOD of the NSS.
Please take time to read the platform statements of the candidates and vote for the person of your choice.

Personally I cannot vote to put TJ on the NSS board if (as JoeyP says) he would put the CDS interests ahead of the NSS.

(I really don't think the interests are all that divergent, but seemingly some of the CDS leadership is focused more on CDS membership and money rather than the benefits of the caving community. Cave divers may feel that they are not really part of the caving community, but they are.)

And I will say that I'm surprised that the phrase "limited to a year or less on this status." can somehow be stretched to allow unlimited annual renewals. Seriously?

So having said that I will get off of my soapbox, shut up, and vote.

Cheers,

David