Ginnie Cave DPV

[Daedalus]

So this is the legal theory that I thought could have been interesting for the School sink lawsuit, if the victims were located in sections of the cave that extended beyond the property.

Indeed...

Hypothetical: I own Blackacre which is on the south side of the Greywater River.# The Greywater River is owned by the State of Confusion, which has sovereign immunity.##On the opposite shore to the north is Whiteacre, owned by the Acme lumber company.

One of the attractions at Blackacre is the zipline which goes from a bluff at the top of Blackacre, across the Greywater River, and onto Whiteacre.# I charge a premium to engage in this activity vs. all my other visitors.# My visitors zipline across the river, some land in the river, some go all the way to Whiteacre, and then swim back.# I don't have permission from Whiteacre to do this and it's disputed whether they are aware of the activity.##

A:#
A visitor using the zipline lets go right away, before going off the bluff, and breaks their ankle on Blackacre.# Who has liability?

B:
A visitor using the zipline lets go above the Greywater River and drowns.# Who has liability?

C:
A visitor using the zipline lets go above Whiteacre and breaks their ankle.# Who has liability?

D:
A visitor using the zipline makes it to Whiteacre without injury but while swimming back to Blackacre drowns in the middle of the river.# Who has liability?

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[MarkR]

So this is the legal theory that I thought could have been interesting for the School sink lawsuit, if the victims were located in sections of the cave that extended beyond the property.

I actually think GSO is justified to act like there is an assumed liability on their part for divers who acces via their park. Much like a dive charter op cannot forget about you once you enter the water. GSO is acting as a Dive operator and is a likely target when something goes wrong.

I feel the problem is in an odd, inconsistent network of training and certifications. Ginnie does not want people diving from their operation beyond their training/cert level. That makes total sense to me. But the way training and certs have evolved over the last 25yrs, they have a tough job calling balls & strikes at the counter amongst teaming hoards of tubers and college kids.

[jason]

I actually think GSO is justified to act like there is an assumed liability on their part for divers who acces via their park. Much like a dive charter op cannot forget about you once you enter the water. GSO is acting as a Dive operator and is a likely target when something goes wrong.

I feel the problem is in an odd, inconsistent network of training and certifications. Ginnie does not want people diving from their operation beyond their training/cert level. That makes total sense to me. But the way training and certs have evolved over the last 25yrs, they have a tough job calling balls & strikes at the counter amongst teaming hoards of tubers and college kids.

Ginnie can do whatever they want, as they own the property, but I find the certification requirement an odd justification. There is clearly a need to be cavern certified in order to dive in a cavern and I'm unaware of any training agency that (actively, in writing) endorses diving in an overhead environment without additional training. So, if the motivation was purely liability and certification, it would seem that requiring a cavern card to access the ballroom would naturally follow.

The larger issue is that CCR diving is perceived as more dangerous than OC diving, a perception that hasn't really been helped by a lot of big name cave divers or even CCR manufacturers.

[oya]

I got thrown out of Arby's today for not wearing pants.

This is BS! Pants are not required for eating delicious roast beef sandwiches!

Now there is no way for me to ever eat any sandwiches because they want to insist on some sort of ludicrous "pants" rule.

It just makes me so angry!

[nakatomi]

I got thrown out of Arby's today for not wearing pants.

This is BS! Pants are not required for eating delicious roast beef sandwiches!

Now there is no way for me to ever eat any sandwiches because they want to insist on some sort of ludicrous "pants" rule.

It just makes me so angry!

That example is just ridiculous.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the card requirements do not make sense, absolutely zero sense.

And I'm not speaking on my behalf as I have all the classes and cards for the type of diving I would do at Ginnie. So it's not even my problem.

And of course agencies like the one you are interning for do nothing about it and gladly accept that everyone wanting to scooter at Ginnie gets another card. It's all about the money.

I'd even be ok with that, provided the instructors would guarantee proper classes. Which quite apparently they don't if you look at the sorry state of some instructors diving skills and those of the students they produce.
Sad, very sad...




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[cavekrazi]

I can't believe all the BS this thread I started has exposed. Ginnie Cave DPV, Ginnie Cave Sidemount...How about Ginnie "Master Cave Diver". There has got to be an undernourished cave instructor behind this certification card run up. Hey Mr. Master Cave Diver Trainer, how about cutting us old guys that have been diving these springs for 25 years some slack. By now I think I know not to scooter through Mainland, but I'd like to scooter to it. I didn't even know there was a Cave Sidemount card. You really are pushing people away from some great cave diving. Who's gonna police the redneck stoners and the underage drunks if the grey haired cave divers go somewhere else? O Hell, I'll probably pop for the full "Master Cave Diver Certification" eventually, probably will learn some great stuff along the way, and look back on the days when I was Master of nothing and realize the error in my ways. I gotta do something, or what good was buying that 140 dollar Ginnie map.

[cavekrazi]

That example is just ridiculous.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the card requirements do not make sense, absolutely zero sense.

And I'm not speaking on my behalf as I have all the classes and cards for the type of diving I would do at Ginnie. So it's not even my problem.

And of course agencies like the one you are interning for do nothing about it and gladly accept that everyone wanting to scooter at Ginnie gets another card. It's all about the money.

I'd even be ok with that, provided the instructors would guarantee proper classes. Which quite apparently they don't if you look at the sorry state of some instructors diving skills and those of the students they produce.
Sad, very sad...




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I was typing while you were ranting. Great minds think alike...sometimes.

[Six Feet Under]

I can't believe all the BS this thread I started has exposed. Ginnie Cave DPV, Ginnie Cave Sidemount...How about Ginnie "Master Cave Diver". There has got to be an undernourished cave instructor behind this certification card run up. Hey Mr. Master Cave Diver Trainer, how about cutting us old guys that have been diving these springs for 25 years some slack. By now I think I know not to scooter through Mainland, but I'd like to scooter to it. I didn't even know there was a Cave Sidemount card. You really are pushing people away from some great cave diving. Who's gonna police the redneck stoners and the underage drunks if the grey haired cave divers go somewhere else? O Hell, I'll probably pop for the full "Master Cave Diver Certification" eventually, probably will learn some great stuff along the way, and look back on the days when I was Master of nothing and realize the error in my ways. I gotta do something, or what good was buying that 140 dollar Ginnie map.

I would think the hordes of drunk/drugged, stupid college kids and rednecks would be a far greater liability (revenue source or not) and deserve more policing than they get by the facility staff than they get...

[cerich]

The larger issue is that CCR diving is perceived as more dangerous than OC diving, a perception that hasn't really been helped by a lot of big name cave divers or even CCR manufacturers.

And those pesky stats.

You forgot to mention the insurance companies.. they believe so as well

[jason]

And those pesky stats.

You forgot to mention the insurance companies.. they believe so as well

Mixed gas diving was perceived as more dangerous than air diving not that long ago. What I was getting at is that ccr diving trades risk. You might have increased risk of a wrong gas accident (hypo or hyperoxia), but you gain a lot in reduced time pressure to solve problems. It's much like the perception that solo diving is more dangerous than team diving. Solo divers may not have a buddy to bail them out, but they also don't have a buddy to cause problems for them.