Cookie vs. Arrow vs. REM

[kwinter]

All my cookies are distinctively marked by me to:


a) enable me to recognize them as mine in No Viz
b) enable me to identify direction to my exit


I won't write exactly what I do here as otherwise there is the chance of too many people copying it and that might defeat the purpose soon, but a cookie can easily be transformeds into a personal REM..
To me it always made sense to incorporate direction into my personal marker to begin with

Yup

[FW]

...Just as I don't think Forrest mounted a crusade to make sure everyone used his arrows..

You are right.

I have to agree with Kelly. If a cave diver is going to modify something to be a REM, they should use cookies. If someone gets confused by someone's modified arrows, and dies, they could be held to blame.

[victorzamora]

So, you are guys are essentially making REMs...be it your own design...but don't see a value in REMs?

Ignoring the grumpy crap, that's correct. The problem with REMs is that they mean the same thing to everyone. Same as an arrow, right? I know it's rectangular instead of triangular but it still clearly denotes an exit in one particular direction. I don't cut off arrow tips to make them REMs, I do that to make them unique. My cookies have a code on them that makes them unique to me AND signal a direction to me and only me. If you came across my cookie in the dark, you'd think it was a cookie. You wouldn't be able to understand the common convention that the "long side" of the rectangle (or triangle) means exit......it means something to me alone. THAT is the difference.

[victorzamora]

You are right.

I have to agree with Kelly. If a cave diver is going to modify something to be a REM, they should use cookies. If someone gets confused by someone's modified arrows, and dies, they could be held to blame.

I don't know where blame would lie, ethically or legally, but I agree that a personal directional non-directional marker shouldn't start with an arrow but with a cookie.

[Benderr]

Arrow = Closest Exit
Rem = Someone's Exit (may or may not be closest)

What's the problem? I know you guys have to argue about something all the time, but this seems like a reach....

[gearhound]

Ignoring the grumpy crap, that's correct. The problem with REMs is that they mean the same thing to everyone. Same as an arrow, right? I know it's rectangular instead of triangular but it still clearly denotes an exit in one particular direction. I don't cut off arrow tips to make them REMs, I do that to make them unique. My cookies have a code on them that makes them unique to me AND signal a direction to me and only me. If you came across my cookie in the dark, you'd think it was a cookie. You wouldn't be able to understand the common convention that the "long side" of the rectangle (or triangle) means exit......it means something to me alone. THAT is the difference.

Sorry Vic, didn't mean to sound grumpy. I was more amused than anything. If you are de facto making your own REMs, obviously you see the need and value of them. Your subsequent argument seems to be - you're the only one smart enough to use them. Everybody else will get confused.
I'm not sure how you were taught, but I wasn't taught to drop markers haphazardly. I'll use a REM on a jump. I'm assuming if you came upon it on a zero viz exit, it would mean nothing to you because you didn't make that jump. If you did make a jump, I'm assuming on your exit, you'd be looking for your spool. My REM would still be disregarded in that case.
If you're dropping a marker to set up a circuit, you'd drop a cookie. Again, no confusion on the exit.
If you come upon my REM in perfect viz, I'm assuming you would have a look at it and know it wasn't yours. So you'd disregard it.
Marking a T - I would hope that you dropped a personal marker of your own. So my marker shouldn't matter to you.
"Killing" an arrow - my personal marker is right up next to the arrow. Cookie or REM shouldn't matter.
So forgive me if I fail to see where the confusion would come from with a properly trained and situationally aware cave diver. If they aren't, then they don't belong in the cave.

[Sludge]

Life was so much easier when we just had arrows and clothespins.

[FW]

Life was so much easier when we just had arrows and clothespins.

I still use clothespins, but the newfangled ones meant to mark trails in the woods. They don't fall off.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/HME-3...=trail+markers

[victorzamora]

Sorry Vic, didn't mean to sound grumpy. I was more amused than anything. If you are de facto making your own REMs, obviously you see the need and value of them. Your subsequent argument seems to be - you're the only one smart enough to use them. Everybody else will get confused.
I'm not sure how you were taught, but I wasn't taught to drop markers haphazardly. I'll use a REM on a jump. I'm assuming if you came upon it on a zero viz exit, it would mean nothing to you because you didn't make that jump. If you did make a jump, I'm assuming on your exit, you'd be looking for your spool. My REM would still be disregarded in that case.
If you're dropping a marker to set up a circuit, you'd drop a cookie. Again, no confusion on the exit.
If you come upon my REM in perfect viz, I'm assuming you would have a look at it and know it wasn't yours. So you'd disregard it.
Marking a T - I would hope that you dropped a personal marker of your own. So my marker shouldn't matter to you.
"Killing" an arrow - my personal marker is right up next to the arrow. Cookie or REM shouldn't matter.
So forgive me if I fail to see where the confusion would come from with a properly trained and situationally aware cave diver. If they aren't, then they don't belong in the cave.

The "grumpiness" was the whole "center of the universe" talk...and it's all good, it takes more than that to offend me. I just didn't want FL vs MX vs other to derail the thread.

With my personal markers, my point isn't that others aren't "smart" enough to use them...it's that to most people it'd simply be a cookie that has seen better days. They have a "code" on them....just for me.

My problem is a zero-viz exit. You REM a jump off of the main line after I go past that point. I swim back, in zero viz, and come upon a "T" with an REM on it. It points to a different exit. I feel that it's an REM, know it's not mine but it's pointing the opposite way of the exit (in my mind). Best case scenario, it puts a lot of doubt in my mind. I don't use REMs, but I know which side means "out." That doubt can be brutal.

[Squirrel Girl]

I still use clothespins, but the newfangled ones meant to mark trails in the woods. They don't fall off.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/HME-3...=trail+markers

Those are very cool. Somehow I took one of yours home with me. Thanks for the link. I'll order some.